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Cyberdevil
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Censorship

Posted by Cyberdevil - November 19th, 2013


Here's a quick piece that no parties should be able to find any offense in, from which everyone may fuel their inspiration with interpretations of their choice, of course with these chosen interpretations limited only to interpretations of non-insulting matters.

Maybe you'll see the metaphor within this darkness. Maybe you'll see, that for a creative community where content is moderated by whim and sympathy rather than policy and law, where freedom of expression and artistic creativity is un-allowed to roam free, the path may be dark and dreary.

I don't believe in a future where the media dictates the right of each individual citizen, not in countries nor on communities. I believe that every functioning society or group is a forum where each voice should be heard equally, where everyone has a right to express their innermost desires and doubts, and everyone has a right to express their discontent with said individual, as long as their offense is not a criminal one. The right to express yourself is a fundamental freedom of any democracy, and I like to believe this is a democratic community, one of the last free bastions of the net, a place where everyone can feel at ease, be themselves and view the rest of the world from a distance, objectively, fairly; as tastelessly as they feel a need to.

Censorship is like an aspirin, it doesn't take away the underlying problem, only the symptom. In the case of NG, this symptom being taken away is a big problem. That's my opinion.

I'm speaking of this debate, of which I've spent way too much time browsing through the pages and reading peoples opinions, getting annoyed at some, getting offended by others, entertaining the thought of posting some fierce response but not letting my intentions get the best of me. I already posted my opinion there, but maybe it's time to delve into this matter even further. Let's go back to my early days at NG...

I've never been much for shock-content. When I first visited this site I was both intrigued and disturbed by some of the content that was available, some of it posted for a reason, some of it posted for the sole-purpose of being offensive, but I quickly accepted that it had a place here. Unlike other portals (like Zellomesh, who suddenly decided to delete a bunch of my audio just because I was submitting a lot of it) this place has always been fair, and lived by policy. The staff has admittedly turned from being edgy and rebellious to focusing more on brighter types of creative content, but even so the dark side has been allowed to flourish, users have still been allowed to freely express themselves.

Over the years companies have asked for certain submissions to be taken down for copyright-infringing reasons. Certain submissions (like the Xombie series) have been licensed and thus taken down. Other submissions with clearly copyright-infringing content were even taken down before anyone sent a request for them (like a series of Music Players I'd made back in the day, much to my dismay). In filtering out illegal content, NG has always been sufficiently efficient, even more-so than YT. Whether this has to do with dedication on part of the staff or simply less content to filter I don't know, but even if I haven't liked certain submissions disappearing over the years it's always been in accordance with the law. When I signed up, the use of such content was still a gray zone, but that's all been cleared up over the years. Maybe it's one of the reasons activity eventually dwindled... maybe not. That a hundred or more animations with 'illegal' Nintendo sprites had to be removed really sucked, but there wasn't much that could be done about that, that's how society works after all, in the real world there doesn't seem to be any free haven when it comes to copyright.

Online, however, Newgrounds has always been more of a free haven than any other place, a real oasis for free speech and artistic individuality. But now it seems that individuality may be dying down, all because of one submission, a submission I still haven't even played. I have read so much about it however, that it feels like I've played it myself, and as far as I know there was nothing illegal about this game. It was simply tasteless and outrageous. Tom mentions that removing this game may be the site evolving, that it can be seen as a form of chrysalis... but it seems to me like this is more of a mid-life crisis. Newgrounds is lost. Youtube is taking over (even though their Google+ integration is a great time to turn a few visitors), and NG has lost its niche. It's no longer about the problems of the future, and not really about everything by everyone either but rather a sort of spotlight for creative content. What is NG? Where does its strength lie? Is it impossible to run a site that pleases all audiences? So far this is all my opinion, but what the debate comes down to are two problems that haven't been solved. I'd like to present potential answers to these two problems, that might prevent anything similar from occurring in the future:

1.) The media identifies content submitted to NG as content that Tom has allowed to be submitted.

I suppose this problem originates in the rather small size of the site (compared to other social communities), and the structure of the staff. The online presentation of what NG is and how it works probably plays a big role. In the submission policy it is already apparent that each user is responsible for their own work, but maybe this needs to be clarified. Potential solutions:

- An angled presentation of NewGrounds as a first and foremost user-driven community.
- Separate page for DCMA take-down requests and other inquiries that aren't directly linked to any specific person.
- Automated messages and/or secretary to further distance the site from it's image as a home-based organization.

2. ) A media rage over an offensive submission may cut off financing of the site.

Again, how advertising companies interpret NG should have a big impact on their forgiveness for certain submissions and willingness to partner with the site. The angled presentation and distancing from the personal aspect of running the site might help. It may also require some more unorthodox methods of financing. Potential solutions:

- Re-implementation of the Bastards! collection (as Alter-native mentions), acknowledging that certain submissions are deemed tasteless even by the staff, but as the flagship of freedom of speech and user-based content that the site is, these submissions are still allowed to hold their ground. I'd think this would inspire new artists rather than scare them off, while at the same time showing the media that the administration is not to blame for user-submitted material
- Opening of a fund, funded by optional user-based donations, from which finances could be taken should a crisis really loom and NG can no longer rely at all on advertising to finance the operation.
- Seek sponsorships with other controversial enterprises or companies, or with those that have interest in marketing their services/products under a slogan that solidifies the importance of freedom of speech and expression. More focus needs to be placed on the aspect of freedom!
- Major bitcoin investments at the end of the year, when they will according to Elitistinen be ripe to buy.
- Letting users sell finished products in conjunction to trailers/games/etc, with a chunk of the profit used as provision to finance the service and site.

Additionally, to prevent offending content from offending:

- Higher age-restrictions for material with mature ratings, allowing only logged-in users above a certain age (set in their profile) to view these submissions (this was also suggested in the topic).

I'd hope this issue can be solved to please all parties, without the site becoming subject to media rage and as an affect loosing all financing. My proposition is: make the system able to handle offensive submissions in a satisfactory way and distance the staff from the corporate image, and maybe when the interest in this game has died down, let it be re-submitted. I'm sure there are better ideas than those I have provided, where there is a will there's a way; I hope there's a will.


Comments

This censorship post has noticeably gotten more reactions than a regular newspost would get. From the looks of that I would say the userbase thinks there's a lot at stake here. It's interesting to see how much it stirred up the community. I should probably go and read all of it regardless. As for that documentary, the guys who made "Indie Game: The Movie" come to mind. I'm pretty sure a documentary could happen if Edmund McMillen were to contact them.

Definitely, even though it didn't mention the game title.... I wonder how many hits it'd have received if it did! Yeah, if nothing else, NG's reputation is on the line, for good or bad... that is a rather big thing. Bluebaby? That'd be awesome!

I think derelix brought up some great points in that thread too, but someone called him a troll, and behold the floodgate opens, and like 90% of controversial threads the discussion devolves. Regardless of who initiated the flaming, you would hope the mod(s) would be the better man here, and pragmatically discuss the issue or ignore him if they so vehemently disagree....Insults and accusations NEVER help resolve an issue.

I'm always pleased at how honest and level-headed Tom is in all his responses. And he made it clear that the reason he took it down was not for financial reasons; the whole bit about "being dropped from every advertising agency in existence" was just stated as an aside. Considering how that was in 2007 he was referring to (I think), if was such a big deal the censorship would have become much tighter long ago.

Twas sickdeathfriend... throwing away a few years of built-up admiration in a few seemingly very thoughtless comments. Later Derelex confuses sickdeathfriend with Zachary and accuses him of accusing him of being a troll, what a mess...

Yeah, it's cool he keeps his cool! I'm wondering how many of the unresponded comments he's read through though, so many important arguments about the downsides of censorship that might potentially pass under the radar... you'd think so, but maybe they've been (as I often do with things I don't want to take care of) just ignoring the problem; not actively looking for future solutions. If it's all a personal choice I'm all the more against it, I empathize with the parents but I care more for this site and what it stands for. :/

That doesn't really go with what you said @Elitistinen.

" Look like the Fulps couldn't avoid much of the shitstorm either ways"

I would say they avoided practically all of it.

They avoided the big one; then created their own...

not from parts of their userbase zachary.

Obligatory response.

Deleted post!!? Oh no! haha joking i read Zachary's response.

Man why do you want people to see a bunch of dicks on the Adult session? haha.

Well this is part of the reality of Tumblr http://your-average-serial-killer.tumblr.com/post/67610713481/take-action-post-to-your-facebook-twitter
Well that a thing is disturbing doesn't makes it illegal, but it gets banned just the same, and i am not necessarily talking about porn, which works just as you said, but sure there is no such a thing as a perma-ban on Tumblr, since it can enter the stream by other users, etc.

No they skip it and lump it with Christmas so i only get one of those... Well i actually hate December with passion, and not necessarily for me being victimized by the festivities, but the whole holy day ambiance is not my thing.

Getting a bank account is quite easy, but all the services suck and are quite abusive, there’s nothing like the wonderful free stuff you just described, using and just possessing a card actually cost you money, the only way to get a decent service in the lines of what you just said is by invitation, and that arrives at random or once you already enter a bank and another one wants you for themselves, so to enter a bank is easy, to be with them is a pain, and to leave leads to your previous point, banks are scum over here, they even charge you if you call for info, i even wonder if they charge you if you log in into your web account to check your credit, they probably do.

Well we can attract a public using bad media coverage, but i can see that backfiring rapidly, from a purely business stand point, that would be just suicidal, of course that view point doesn't respects any code or ethic, it only search monetary profit. So in this regard Tom did the best thing.

I agree, i wouldn't be all that comfortable to know that an artist i don't really know is using resources that could go to sustaining the page, even if the page is in a way sustained by the users which that artist is attracting, so in the end is fine... kinda selfish if i put it like that, because I still don’t like the idea XD.

Well i guess that Tom is searching, and that is why he was talking about the 2 NG, so he could get some new ad companies for the page, by making the place friendlier to a new public.

Wow look at all those links, the media really is exaggerating this, yellow journalist at its finest.

:)

I never said that! :O But the choice is of course free... maybe some male/female filter hmm...

Wonder if they have the legal right to log personal data of international users... but I guess that comes with using an international service.. interesting post. K, if you say so, I really don't know more than I've read, and there's no guarantee all the offensive content I've stumbled across is there any longer.

Well that's a shame.

There's ambiance on Christmas? It's one of the most hectic holidays ever! :P So much stress... I could use less of that, but I like the lights, the snow... most of all: the presents! :D Both giving and taking, equal fun. Sure it's all about commercialism now, but if you don't think about the profit everyone's making off it it feels like a very accomplishing and benevolent occasion.

It really is the country of commercialism... makes me think maybe I should sign up for some extra bank accounts while they still have free services here. :P

Feels like the sucidality of the event is highly exaggerated... but I wouldn't know. If it isn't, good call indeed!

That donation topic brings up another idea btw, what if users could fund the site; have their money channeled first and foremost to operational costs, and in second hand also portioned between their favorite users? This could be completely separate too, even with an ad-financed site, users could have the option to support all their favorite artists through a single donation or subscription, like Flattr but integrated within the site. It could be added to the ad-revenue each artist receives, maybe with a small list of users who have contributed to them visible (only to them) at the bottom/month.

Yeah, maybe, I guess I shouldn't underestimate staff efforts so much.

Wait i just actually watched and 3 of those links are for petitions, what nonsense like if that would actually do something, but that also means that the game is getting people more touched than they should, could it be, maybe, that we Newgrounders are just a bunch of desensitized bastards and the game is really a horrible spawn of the devil? the answer is no, people are just being played by the media like always,and as always is working wonders, and actually none of those mentioned the 3rd mode of the game, some even dare to say that the game has no music, is incredible.

Plus Newgrounds is being mentioned in some of those, some comments even plainly blame us the users for rating the game fairly.

So YTubers want to come here and boycot? hahahaha.

Sounds like potential traffic increase.

Do you honestly believe that the backlash would have been lesser if he left the game up? To even COMPARE it to removing it is silly. The reason it was left out of most news sites is because Tom decided to remove it. Otherwise they would be on it like a fat kid on cake.

They didn't "create their own" because there is nothing to debate. Someone uploaded it to the site, and the site owners removed it. Even if it is told to the public that way, there is no way Newgrounds can be held at fault.

You are just creating something out of nothing honestly.

On NG, yes. On the rest of the net it'd of course have been mayhem, but as to how much I guess we'll never know. It might have been rough, but if NG had pulled through it would have been an NG that stood by it's principles and persevered, a community united by the integrity of each individual artist. It'd have been an impressive feat; made me much prouder to be a member here.

If Tom hadn't voiced his decision (and opened to debate - he does ask for user opinions), I believe there wouldn't have been a shitstorm here on NG, at least not such a big one. Most people who crawled out of the woodwork to post would probably not have been aware of the situation (I wasn't). But now that they were made aware, of course there is something to debate. Sure he owns this site, but it's like a country - the people who live here want to have a voice in how their society is governed. Google steers their continent without involving the people, but here is different; it's a true democracy, with laws and officials to regulate them like anywhere else; a free country like this would obviously form a bunch of passionate patriots along the way, intent on preserving their rights to enjoy a luxury of freedom that they've become used to.

Posting that Censorship topic was probably a great maneuver in getting positive media attention though, and reviving a fraction of inactive users at the same time. He's making it clear not to just the users what's going on, but it's also like a call to sympathy for the media, to let them know what he's done and prevent them from attacking the site; let them understand what's going on without making an official statement. I really wonder how much of what he posts is posted with an intended effect in mind and how much is without motive... either way though I'm glad the posts posted, glad the opportunity to influence was given, even if it had little or no effect...

Thin line between something and nothing, it's all opinion.

Male/Female filter? you want the LGBT community complaining for sexism? i can already see the post...

Yeah they get your data as long as you use the service.

Ah well that is mostly because i am kinda an hermit, so yeah a bunch of people out of nowhere, skipping over my B-day, year after year, talking about some religious event as an excuse to do dem parties and gifts... gifts that means i have missed 50% of my gifts, and once you hit 16 gifts are the most boring stuff ever, you know what? screw December.

Go on man, enjoy those banks for me.

You mean like Patreon.com http://lazymuffin.newgrounds.com/news/post/874578#comments
It could work, but... isn't that a little de-powering to the artist? let me explain, before we were just fans, we followed, watched, liked, spread the word, if the guy made some merchandise we bitched about it, then we found out "damn this is some really cool ass shirt" so we buy the stuff, that's how it is for now.

On this new system, we are more integrated, and like with stocks on a company, we have a say, a greater influence beyond an opinion regarding the content, is like a kickstarter, but now the artist has to be more aware of pleasing the public, it doesn't has that much freedom, and that is quite ironic since we are talking about censorship.

But granted, it sounds promising, sure, i will say it now though, if such a system ever works, we should put restrictions, so new artist could get a chance to be featured or spotlighted, that way the big names wouldn't be there forever front-paged, pleasing their own audiences, and thus clogging the stream of new and different content, leading us to stagnation, like what happens on Deviant Art, the place is death, because everyone is an ass-licker, and they are doing the same thing, following trends, it can NOT grow (artistically and ethically), the users can't complain (psychologically), if someone ever does, a wave of delusion and escapism activates to avoid reality, but hell isn't the place popular? and aren't those "artist" good at getting donations? yes they are, and that is my point, if we made such a system we need to avoid falling into such a disgusting state.

Newgrounds as a country, with a democracy? no, we are more of a republic, with a really nice monarch. I like the comparison, i wonder how much of that is really true and relevant, i will wait for Zachary's answer.

Haha, someone always gonna hate :D

Yeah.

Once you hit 16? I still haven't hit the point when I'm not interested in gifts. I thought it was around 60, considering my parents aren't too hyped up about their birthdays or Christmas any longer... still the house is getting a bit crammed though, that's kinda making me feel like I should cut down on collecting...

I shall honor your request! :)

Patreon, yeah, didn't read through everything on their site but that's pretty much it... though you should know flattr.com/ is the original, all the new ones are just copying the idea. Well I don't mean it'd be an obligatory system, you could still be just a fan, and support artists you like in other ways if you like/don't have the finances/don't want to get involved (and I guess most users wouldn't), but for those that do I don't see how this'd be a bad option. It's not like it'd replace all other momentary income forms or change the artistic freedom, they can still do whatever they like. Already many think about pleasing their audience more than doing what they really want so they get more followers; get more recognition; get more hits on their videos and thus more ad-revenue.

It'd be great with a such system integrated with the site since there would be no extra fees involved in payment processing too. Huh? Eternally frontpaged? Maybe you're misinterpreting my idea here, I don't mean artists who receive contributions would get more showcasing space than anyone else. Many already accept donations through external services, this way everyone on the site could take part of such features, and an automatic split between all favorites would let popular users get something for their effort regardless of what they do, whether it be posting at the forums, writing a ton of reviews or making great stuff. It's not like users with the most fans would get a much much bigger amount of contributions, since there's a large amount of users that drop out from the active user base overtime, that's more of a counter than an actual profit denominator.

Don't really get how this would have to do with censorship? :/

I was thinking of a very unobtrusive option in the control panel saying something like 'Contribute to your favorites', you're taken to a page explaining any transfered sum will be equally split amongst your favorites; you can choose amount to use/month from your transfered cash. If the amount is less than specified, it'll still be split equally, and that's it, no notifications or reminders... nothing happens if you don't want to add more money (and if you never do, there's no shame).

Well yeah, DA is a great example of a site grown so large only a set few users get any real recognition, same thing with YT. I don't mean the system would work any differently here than it's always done, this'd just be an additional feature for optional donation.

True, considering there's no election a republic is more like it!

After 16 you stop getting nice things and they either give you clothes, or money... well money is cool, but yeah is not the same.

Haha, oh man i see a misunderstanding here, i know that it doesn't has to be obligatory, of course not, but what i say is that those who support are gaining an certain level of authority, and power to sway the content into their tastes, this only affects the other fans after the artist finds itself in that position of appealing to its public, as you just said most of them already do that, now increase this attitude by 4, and we get that none of them will dare to risk and do something new, they will play it safe, and since it becomes a competence for supporters which has a different resource than ad-revenue less people will try and adventure, you may say innovation will give them an advantage in this competence, but that is not the case, i already put the DA example, and the masses go for what they already know and like, and fear plus plainly reject any change or new presentation.

I will said that you are right but, this phenomenon already happens here, indeed we even have this thing called king of the portal, so a system that patronize their artist will only increase this, and is great, but what i am saying is that we need a counter so the ones who are not as popular or are just starting will also get a chance, hell that is already rightnow a problem, but is not as big because we don't get 5 popular creators uploading the very same day, but do you remember those comercials for chips that were getting 2 daily frontpages in an entire month? well i do and that is a perfect example of being eternally frontpaged.

I will explain once the hive mentally establishes itself the content that is unable to adapt will be overshadowed and end censored, not deleted but hidden from public view, and that already happen in places like DA.

that's different you distribute your support from a pool/walllet to all your favorites? it seems to avoid the problem of an user getting overly active into dependence, working it out for the money, but is way less effective as a real solution, since in a year an average user will have lots of favorites it will be too small a contribution. Is not that i don't like the idea, is just that i know where it leads because i have seen it already, so what i want in such a system is a countermeasure to avoid such thing.

Sounds like your missing out on a sibling sister who loves to give interesting stuff. :P Last Christmas I remember getting a Panda in some form of nano-Lego (popular in Japan right now), this sort of maze in metal with two sides you had to complete at the same time, a stressball with some kind of aromatherapy essence... well to sum it up: we each gave about 30-40 presents a piece, equally, to all five family members (nothing valuable though, just interesting things; edibles), though my parents aren't so optimistic...

Ah, I get your point now. Potential solution: not let authors know who is supporting them. I don't think artists would just play it safe though and keep submitting the same thing over and over. Maybe things work differently here at NG, but there are artists here who have gained their fanbase by being random; not caring what people thing (like Catoblepas and yurgenburgen). They know this, and I don't think they'd start doing things differently if they were supported. Quite the opposite, they enjoy their freedom, and they'd get the needed budget or time to make even more great stuff! Or use the money elsewhere and not let it affect them. Though as I said this wouldn't necessarily have to apply to only content creators. You can follow anyone on here. Some users barely go outside the forums, but the system could work the same there as well.

Chips commercials?? I must've missed those completely. Any links? Well you could say it's a problem that popular artists just get even more popular, while unknown ones have a hard time attaining any status, but I don't think this would make a difference for this, and especially not make it worse. Am I missing something? Does DA have a contribution system like this? Sounds like the problem would be the same if NG just receives a surge of popularity, authors get more ad-revenue and more people start submitting. That's one of the dangers with big sites: less personality. But since the frontpage would still be based on manual selection (apart from P-Bot posts)... how could this go wrong?

Well yeah, that's it... did I just type in all the above for no reason? :L Well I'm not saying it'd give everyone unlimited funds, but it'd be a way to contribute, no matter how little (everyone after the size of their own wallet). And artists get an equal share too. That's how Flattr works so maybe Patreon is a bit different after all... as for how it wouldn't be much, that's true, but ad-revenue isn't much either. So far I've earned less than $0,02 this month... and in all my time here I still don't have enough to request a payout. Granted there was no ad-revenue given to users when I was most active and had tons of submissions, but the point is ad-revue probably doesn't amount to livable amounts even for the more popular users.

(Part 2 because i feel like i need to elaborate more)
So we have this system when you can support your favorite(s) artist(s), and that is great, i am fine with it, i like it, it works, and it does all the good things you said.

But! it also has some ugly consequences, and is as you just said that only some users will get recognized while others will find it harder to rise, even more if they decide to do something which is outside the normal parameters of the majority when it comes to tastes.

My proposal to avoid this, is to make the artists which are getting already a reasonably big amount of donations to be unable to participate along the other guys, like leagues, in which they could be ranked, so at one point the page itself wouldn't need to promote them, i am thinking of something similar to when we choose the top submissions of the month, and we can read a disclaimer that says something like: "Don't nominate porn, that content can defend itself without our endorsement" so with this it would be something similar. Artists that are already quite famous shouldn't be competing against the rest, since they can attract public by themselves, what we could have for them is a weekly top 5 or top 10 when the "pros" get to show their submissions.

sure that doesn't changes the fact that they would want to go "commercial", and you will say, no that will never happen here, we have better taste and we are critic, we will avoid such content that is clearly made just for the money. Well i am not that sure about that, for one, and in second place, this system is such a nice idea, that i can see it allowing NG to grow, and that means more users, new users, that are not acclimated to the old NG, and will be voicing their wants, and their don't wants, and while is an optional thing for the fans to donate or not, since in the end the artist is living out of this they will have to search ways to encourage donations toward themselves, and i hope you can see where i am going with this, but the majority of people will ban things like that game by Pigpen, and will be glad with Tom doing censorship, not because it was a good PR move, but for entirely stupid reasons, in short, my fear is NG turning into a YT or DA for flash and animations, if we don't take some countermeasures from point 1.

Is everything by everyone, but if the userbase changes, we will be saving a different of NG

So far so good. :)

Not that I can see how this particular system has any ugly consequences, but onto the proposition...

So you mean there would be a max amount of revenue for each alloted favorite user, taking all fan-based contributions into consideration? That sounds like a reasonable idea, but then again some users are making a living off of their animating, while others are just here for the fun. Those who spend all week pumping out animations would be, even if they are earning unreasonable sums compared to others, also spending much more effort to make up for these contributions. In what case would it be fair to set a roof on contributions just to split the revenue equally, without taking into consideration how the contributions would be used by said authors? It sounds a bit complex to control... and not necessarily good, unless the system is obviously being abused with shovelware and such content... but the mods already do a good job keeping that at bay.

Well I don't have anything against content made specifically for the money, as long as the content is good. I wouldn't mind paying for good content, at least not just contributing a small share of a fixed sum of money. A bigger budget should allow amateur artists to grow; professional artists to keep going. In other words, it'd be great for the community.

Ah, yeah, artists would definitely ask for donations... just like they've now started to ask people to follow them (I don't remember that happening back when there were only 'favorites'... seems like a consequence of the new generation), and some artists often ask for donations already. In a way, it could encourage more abuse, but on the other side it'd promote an equal system, where everyone can get a piece of the pie even if they don't ask for it. This monthly voting thing sounds like you're thinking artists should be showcased based on their contributions after all, though? :/

(Part 3 damn straight this can go for long)

We face with a variety of problems, so in this part 3 having talked i think enough about how new users will affect the artist approaches and how, these new direct influx of money can change the direction of their production, i will in this 3rd installment concentrate on the problem of public flow.

We have 2 kind of public flow, the one that is attracted to the page, a public searching for an artist or things, which stays here, new users that arrive, and the things that make them come here, this category lets call it "A".

To the "A" category belong those artist that are already quite famous, and can attract public by themselves.

Then we have "B" which is redistribution (Holy shit yes, this is a socialist model, i know damn Max Weber, but bear with me a little i swear i just realized about now), this category is all the process that the page (and all other pages really) have to fulfill and is to show these users, some new content, show them new artist and promote them.

To this "B" we have small growing artist, and the odd ones that add the variety to the page.

So here, so far so normal, we have to attract new users, and then we once they are here we show them new things, this is also at the same time, tied to the promise that an artist not only can show his work here but that the page has the means to help him/her to grow a fan base, with even promise that in a future they will make a living out of it (ad-revenue, donations, the shop).

You may say, "so what? NG already does all this, in fact every single page that showcases artist does this, that is the standard model, but compared to YT or the art portal with DA, NG moves a smaller scale" yes, but while everyone does this, they do it wrongly with the one ecception being? that's right NG, and even NG has times when it fails and repeats the mistakes of YT and DA, sure this is a rare event, but happens, and it can increase the more a page grows, but what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here?

(Hold it there is part 4)

Damn right you have the right to write!

True, category A would be a spotlight for popular artists, since they're known; even if the users don't know about them, since they appear first on search results (submission order based on popularity and all that), but it'd also be a way of finding obscure submissions within a certain niche, the key being the keywords (tags) and titles. The site could use a better search engine to lure in new users, but that's a different topic...

Max Weber huh. So category B is the 'Related Submissions' box? Social media sharing? the NG FB page? Wait... maybe you're saying category A are the famous artists and category B the unknown? I'm confused here. Maybe part four will clear this up...

(Part 4, what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here? i am late for classes yes is Saturday)

I am talking about artistic stagnation, as we all know in order to get attention, and secure a fan base (for which bad media coverage doesn't really help), the artist will need to create an appealing product, and this of course will end in what we jokingly call "tastes like egoraptor" or following a model that we already know people like, thus keeping it safe, without any risk, this allows the artist to feed itself from already big fan bases.

But why is this bad? i am sure i already said this before but here i will make it more explicit and detailed, we are in category "B" redistribution, is the page duty to show new artist to new public, so the page does just that, but, that the artist is new doesn't means that content is new, we have a wonderful system and is the under-judgement, when we can see all the uploads regardless of who it is, there is now even a monetary incentive to participate, and the next day the top submission will get frontpaged, this is endemic to Newgrounds and is what is saving it from failing like other pages, but is not enough, since artist from category "A" also use this system, thus blocking the influx to category "B", that is a current problem, and is a different problem to artistic stagnation, although it is directly related.

But in this explanation we are in the future, with a system of donations integrated on NG, and we already solved the previous problem so artist from "A" don't use the tools of exposure of the category "B", "well perfect!" you may say, but here is when the actual problem arises, and is what happens with DA and YT, the artist from "B" will imitate the ones from "A" so they could achieve success, thus while the page is getting new users, who are getting introduced to new artist, the content is not changing, and there is no encouragement for it to change, so we get ourselves a page which can host your production, but if this creation of yours is not accommodating itself to a general trend, this creation of yours will remain hidden, unknown practically censored, shunned by the same public who doesn't knows you, and the page that cant help you to become unknown.

Late for classes with class!

Applicable to certain artists, yes. Some refuse to stick with the same style for this exact purpose, but moving on...

True, and in a way the new system brought this stagnation, since the under judgment sections are now filtered out from the main, more popular, content. When the portal was the main view each submission had an equal chance. It wasn't just a call for favorites, every user could get instant recognition with a good title; good thumbnail; most of all: good work. The new system makes it easy for people to see the content they want to see and filter out the rest, but at the same time they're missing a lot of potentially great content; as a result new users have trouble getting acclaimed. The Follow Friday is a good way of getting new users showcased though, and the manually selected Frontpage items... monthly choices and p_bot posts however seem to lean more in the favor of the popular artist. But then again they're usually popular artists for a reason: they make good stuff...

This is the part where I wonder what tools of exposure you speak of? True, only famous users can start trends.

The monetary reason to participate in the judging process has always been there btw, it just wasn't known to most users earlier on. Every month a voter has been selected at random to get the cash prize for quite a few years now.

(Part 5, same theme, continuation)

But why is this happening, because in the end is popularity which allows a submission to be frontpaged, and not everyone sees the entirety of the content who falls outside of this feature, for clear time limitations, and while for the hobbits this may not be a big deal, for the artist by profession this becomes an issue, because it can see that unless he changes its vision it will starve (on a variety of way, in this case my connection is less fans, less support, less support...).

And now we have a system which encourages a theme to be produced, so it ends showing the same thing to everyone but from a different source, currently NG has a wonderful amount of variety, so the idea is to achieve this without sacrificing this variety.

To mange a way when different visions are shown to the new users, and they don't have to like it, but at least the page is doing the job of showing this variety.

You may say, that even if it fails to do that, the page will survive, indeed it will grow, and expand, i agree it will in a purely economical way, flourish, but its integrity, will die, it will become another generic page to showcase material, with no variation, with an homogenized and alienated user base, of both creators and consumers, it will be a different NG, in that way the NG of today will be effectively death, and this page could respect your freedom of speech, but it wouldn't matter since no one will see what you said, it will be ignored.

Ignored because is competing against a system that is already ruling the taste and values of the ones which vote, and there is nothing to even the ground, you may say then we could promote those extremely unknown heroes that dare to do something different, but we will have to make a tool that is as effective at showing these heroes as the tools that the category "A" and the mainstream of "B" is already using, if not better.

This is a must because is these guys who do different things the ones who bring the change, if not we face the danger of artistic stagnation, which also atrophies thought.

Indeed this whole time i am talking about the commercialization of art, and how this leads to degeneration, and this is not limited only to art.

(Part 6 solution to this problem)

Well not only popularity, but also user recommendation and chance. Remember the treasure hunts for hidden gems? Follow Fridays where users suggest artists without the fanbase they deserve? Users can even send Tom a PM with submission tips, and they might be added. So it's partly about popularity, but also about chance and about the views of the users. That's a lot of work for one individual though... don't know if everyone at NG HQ work together on filtering out stuff to the FrontPage or if it really is a one-man job but either way, the way it works, there's room for everybody. I guess the problem with a big NG would be that there are so many artists that all of them don't have space to be showcased... but are we actually speaking of potential problems if NG grows huge? Wouldn't that be a good thing? There are cons with everything but I'd think the pros outweigh them...

I think we agree that variation; acknowledging less known users; letting everyone have an equal chance are great aspects of this site... as for commercialization: users are able to use Patreon or Flattr if they like, independability, right now. So far it hasn't led to any artistic stagnation, though commercialism is definitely leading some artists to other communities with promises of greater riches... plenty of popular users here post to other communities as well. I'm still not getting how an optional contribution system would be able to impact how all of this works if its abuse is prevented buuut, onwards to the solution...

(Part 6 conclusion)

So what do i propose to encourage people into doing something different instead of shovelwares?
For me it is clear, that just helping the page to avoid stagnation should be enough. But i am trying to be realistic here, so we i need to come with a way when the artist gets secured a public, or at least that the public is being exposed to its work, and that even if they don't like it the artist wouldn't suffer a great loss, compared to lets say if he did a remix of something already well liked.

So first we need a system to show the artist work, and now a prize awarding the fact that it did something different, this could be called an innovation showcase, when these kind of things get promoted, or just so things like taste don't get so much in the way, lets call it alternative showcase, that way we don't risk making a preconcept related to the quality but we make it clear that it is different, but in the end is still a competition, indeed it has always been, everywhere, so the artist will have to put all their effort, like it should be, that way they can't get away with it with the excuse of it being different, and i know new things are plagued with errors, that is expected.

But is this really enough? is this securing us from stagnation? is just this sufficient to fight against the lure of getting away by following a preexisting formula? no, is not enough.

While we could stop there and get away with it, saying that we fulfilled our duty as a page by showing your work to the masses this is still not enough.

If the mind, of the masses has stagnated all this will end in vain, so we also need to protect the integrity of the consumers of NG, these weirdos full of cynicism, that likes odd things, that defends games about mass shootings, poop jokes, and that which is bizarre, that knows that something should be said without it being censored, regardless of the quality and context, that is willing to see the weirdest of things, to see everything, by everyone (shit i feel like a politician).

And how we do that? well for one standing by our principles (in that case Tom made a mistake), but also educating the new users to know the past of the page, so when the inevitable happens they will know, that NG is more than than a place wen you can go and watch pony porn, and video game parodies, but that this has its own culture, different from all else.

Independent of the contribution system previously spoken of? I thought this was all leading up to some twist on that feature... but an innovation showcase definitely seems like an idea!

So far I'm not seeing the stagnation problem though, everyday the Top 5 submissions contain something new, in both games and animations, there's plenty of plot innovation. I try to check out all five everyday and I am surprised by how different each submission is; how many new ideas pop up that I'd have thought someone would have used a long time ago. I'm all for the competition though, it wouldn't just keep the place alive, but also maybe make the weird (and at times disturbing) socially acceptable in a new way; indeed, make everyone aware of what freedom of expression truly means. While they're at it though they should add some rules as to limit the levels of (personal) obscenity that can be included. There are already rules prohibiting certain content forms so that's nothing new, but when something that is technically accepted is taken out of the system it's clear the rules supposed to regulate content aren't adequate any longer.

Anyway, I agree completely; introducing new users to page history is something the current site isn't very good at. The entire History section is really hidden deep deep down, new users commonly post questions already answered in the Wiki, which I assume is because they don't find it. It's an obscure page with very fragmented bits of information... that could definitely improve.

As for other ways to promote user content, an embed feature would be the most useful thing. Without that people are embedding YouTube versions of NG content just so that it can be spread around the net. Unless it'd be too resource-intense a feature for the servers... that'd be the promotional feature of the decade, way better than the Fan Net from way back (though I wish they'd bring that back too).

Man i just finished part 6 and you already replied to the first 2 parts, mmmmh i have this dilemma, when i can start answering your counterpoints, and questions, or i could leave it rest, but fuck it already missed my class (i am such an irresponsible bastard, mom please don't read this...)

Yeah we have wonderful artist that do wonderful random things, but those artist can be easily overthrown, in this new system with a resurrected economy who is not suffering by searching an accompany that would want to do business with them, we are in a big NG, is fictional sure, but this whole activity is of us envisioning, so we are there, at the same levels of the other pages, back in the center, google is afraid of us, we are that big.

And since we are that big, we can talk about mainstream, and users like Catoblepas, yurgenburgen, Master Aardvark, are still not as popular as they should be, even more to put things on perspective, if we combine Sexual-Lobster, Doki (Fat-pie), and the weebl, which are huge here they at best get 150.000 fans which is less than half they have on their YT channels, but even if we unite their YT channels we at best get to the million, you see, that is way too underrated, and it can get worse, so is not like i am being pessimistic, but every single one of those artist we both mentioned deserves a million fans just by themselves, and they are not getting them, and those are the big ones here, now lets think about the middle guys, the small ones, and the beginners, don't get me wrong, i am not saying that these big guys will start doing bad work just to sell (even if Sexual-Lobster's work for machinima wasn't his best), but my point is that the small ones may be pushed to do it, because they really don't have options, and their option is here NG, and if NG changes then they are doomed, and we are doomed because we don't get new people making new things which is my main point, remember we are dealing with the future here.

So we need to grow and embrace all these persons, even the commercials one, but without killing our spirit, and that which feeds our spirit, an while i know that the old one won't betray this (well Egofaptor no longer does any animation...) the new ones may be unable to join this NG, and in time NG will just transition into something, that i already explained and disapprove of.

Well since it's six parts long I had to take each part at a time... but maybe responses would've been more consistent if I read through everything at once... anyway, will go through the last two after I finish typing this... had to take a break from reading haha, so much! Text blocks has me thinking about Legos now btw..

Maybe you should add the spoiler note before you mention something she shouldn't read? :P Hope the class wasn't anything important...

So.. your point is that if NG grows too big the smaller artists won't have a reason to be here? There is one flaw to that theory though, which is the manual front page selection and the community. There is no community on DA or YT, there are comments on a per-submission basis, but there is really no way for users to get together and interact, to recommend new animations to watch, to collaborate or make people aware of new artists. That's probably what's keeping those communities from developing a bond to the user, that and the lack of staff that aren't just emplayed for a paycheck. I'm not saying this system would be sustainable if it grows too big, but even in the peak years around 2007 it was doing fine; the place wasn't just flooded by the popular artists. Of course back then the portal was the main page... things might turn out different now...

Already explained? You know, on second thought I think I'll read the other two responses before I post this response... hmm, you mean: keep an open mind?

"you're saying category A are the famous artists and category B the unknown?" is more under this lines because in this version NG doesn't really needs of external sites to promote itself, so Facebook is not a way to attract people the category "A" already is doing this work.

Well, i am not again of famous users, but of everyone copying what they already did, hoping to become famous too, i know man, they are famous mostly, because they are also good.

The tools of exposure i talk about are already in this page, don't confuse them with external advertisement, you don't see ads for YT or DA here on NG, do you? what i am talking is about easy ways of making the audience to watch the content, which in this case is the current ground gold system, which encourages the users to see 5 submission so they would gain XP, lvl up, and have more voting power.

Mmh indeed is a competitive system, but in an idealism people should go and brows all the submissions of that day and they will watch what they like, i discarded this ideal because in the current model which is so big, even more content would be lost in the sea of the portals, but i agree there must be a better way to just browse and navigate the uploads, with a minimum of loses.

Indeed the FrontPage is just that, the front page, and is one of the tools of exposure, like i already told you NG already has these things, P-Bot is another tool, the interviewer, is another tool, etc.

Again this system is one of a hyper big NG, and is already widely known in the same ranks as YT or FB, haha we can even say YT and FB will be making user pages here on NG.
Why? because the economy of the page is alive, people come and stay, spend money, consume and upload content, and there are the incentives for them to do it here instead of other places, because we offer them opportunities of being exposed, and to work in this.

Yeah i know that they choose the monthly voter randomly, what is new here for me is that i didn't really know that the monetary incentive aquas always there, goes figures, so it seems not even that is enough... (why because otherwise people will rate more actively the under-judgement submissions, and Tom wouldn't have changed he numbers for a submission to get blammed or saved)

Ah, got it. A first step to promote lesser known artists could be to stop ranking submissions in search results based solely on popularity, and add titles/sizes/formats to a users list of choices. Or maybe they could add a 'Surprise Me' checkbox (like Google's Get Lucky) that takes you to one of the least viewed submissions within the more relevant range.

True, promotion via FB is promoting FB alongside NG, NG promotion would promote only NG. Which is why those embeds could really be a big thing...

It's common? Man I'm probably watching submissions most people don't watch then, seems I rarely stumble upon anything that's just out to copy or users just out to attain fame. The games8 submissions were the closest I ever got to that, but they seem to have stopped streaming in...

Actually I do see plenty of ads for YT and DA. On the social media buttons on the frontpage. On user profiles. After user submissions. In submission comments. In embedded videos on newsposts... the promotions everywhere, and for the embeds specifically it's subliminal promotion. It's like we take it for granted, YT is so big now it's an element we don't even think about, but you'll never see NG embeds on YT, they're not opening up for competition the same way... I get what you're saying though. On that note, the importance of Grounds Gold was also drastically reduced with the redesign, but who knows if it's for either good or bad, users who have been here since ancient times and attained incredibly high status might scare away users more than they inspire them... though it didn't work that way for me when I found this place.

Indeed.

Indeed again!

That'd be an awesome future. :) Yeah, it's all about incentives.. right now it seems the biggest incentive for most people is audience... but NG can't compete with that. I believe the main incentives are: the community, the personality, the creativity, the freedom; that element which might not have the same effect on all users - stats. Back in the day it feels that was one of the biggest lures, maybe the EXP game hasn't been built upon as much as it could have...

You are wrong DA has a community, but is a piece of manure, which forum shows the poor state in which it deals the it divides itself on "groups" which are niches of themes, it could be like the oversize version of the various crews that we have here on NG, and the community collaborates mostly inside their own clubs, for seasonal events, random features, and the constant Daily Deviations that are user suggested submissions of the works of other users, but this has to be approved first by the admins that is why they are called suggestions.

I feel like either you really don't see my problem, or i haven't been able to explain myself, so i will be the most simpler possible.

1- we added the donation system, which busted the traffic of users which make content for NG, this as a consequence increased the traffic of users that visit the page, and as they start to visit more often they create their own accounts, and integrate themselves to NG, so NG grows, and the advertisement grows with it, to the point that it rivals other pages, and we also have a store, so lets say that the shop also started to go big on businesses.

So far so good.

2- My issues with a sudden growth of the page, being mostly that original content will be overshadowed by a more commercial one like what happened with http://versustvigle.newgrounds.com/movies/ which even got to be fortunate enough and enjoy of a bug who gave him 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th places, in the same day, while it constantly occupied 2 positions each day for practically an entire month. But now i see why you don't see this as a problem, you were ok with this.

And well that was not only an example of overexposure, but also of the low participation on the UJ page(s).

So you see we already don't get people actively seeing all the things that get uploaded to the page (hell i myself am guilty of this, since i only thoroughly see the art portal), then the things that do get front paged are indeed thanks to the votes of the users, and organised by P-Bot, we have very real issue here and is that the unknown users remain unknown, if that is all we have, in this hyper system, but lets go back to our current system, in our current system we also have The interviewer... somewhere around his post appear..., we have Toms post like the one from today "More Amazing People to Follow", we have the forums, but is still insufficient.

Oh, Groups. I stand corrected then. Can't remember that being there last time I checked, must've been a while... actually, since YouTube is now integrated with Google+ I guess they have a community too, though badly synchronized with the content. The NG community stands out amongst the competition! I do see DA have a Site Tour though, this place could really use something similar. Ideas of a contest to create a creative infomercial for new users of the site pops into mind...

You mean boosted the traffic? Yupp, so far so good...

Oh yeah, I remember that! Getting four spots in the daily top 5 sparked quite a debate. :D With the new voting requirements that shouldn't happen again... but as for all those submissions, I really don't mind them. They may have flooded the portal for a while but they were all fun. At the start they didn't win any awards either, it took a while for them to gain recognition, and considering over 80 submissions won less than 30 awards it seems you're exaggerating a bit. :) As long as these things are not constant, and the content is good, I'm OK with it. Shovelware is a different thing.

Overexposure... yeah, maybe, but it never lasts that long. It would be worse if works like these were never submitted to NG in the first place, and unless there's better content any good entertainment should be good for traffic. I sympathize with users getting pushed out of the Top 5 by more popular artists, even if their work is good, but that's always been a problem. Even with a small community, new users never seem to get recognition until they've submitted a few pieces at least, unless their first submission is something amazing, like with Snow Hare or The Reward (in which case you can see the system is working as it should right now, they both got daily first and were submitted by brand new users with no previous activity on the site). So even with an increase in traffic, would things be that different? If it gets to a point where there's just too much, NG could always close their doors for new members (or maybe just for uploaders), maybe move over to invites. That'd probably just make it more popular. :)

Low participation on the UJ pages... that shouldn't be a problem if this place brings in more visitors. Sure having the Portal as the main page, not allowing the majority of users to simply skip to the good stuff, would force more participation, but with a bigger userbase I believe there'd still be a fair share of dedicated users. Personally I think the new UJ sections are harder to navigate and way too visual, I prefer the Portal, but not everyone is a power user I guess. :)

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but we already have these problems. Would it really be different if the site was bigger? I guess too big = impersonal, but at least right now the userbase could use a boost. I really don't mind either way though, the way it is there's plenty of great content, plenty of great users, plenty of interactivity and creative enterprises. But if a visitor increase would bring in more money that'd benefit everyone. And paradoxically, more money might bring a visitor increase...

I remind you again, we are not talking about the current NG, but they hyper big one, if you still tell me that we can keep the things as beautifully varied as they are now in such a system, then i really have nothing to say, anyway, i will continue, because at least for me a collapse of the system at such a size is evident, and yeah DA has a community, however is way more divided than NG, the challenge is to keep this family like feel even if the NG population explodes which i think is your point.

But back to were i am, so our current mediums are insufficient, and if we don't create countermeasures, we will be flooded, this tsunami will need a regulation, so the different content, and the unknown content can get a chance to still surface (and no is not my paranoia remember the discussion with the speed-paints and people were fearing a flood of those overshadowing the legit animations?), well in this hyper system this increase so all the more reason for small artist to find it hard to grow (because is harder for them to get noticed), but is these guys, with nothing to lose that can go and make new things, as fact, and i don't think you can argue against this, in the end is those new artist the ones that will keep NG alive, and if we don't protect them and encourage them to come with something different then we will stagnate with a bunch of Egraptors look alike (not like he is bad, but too much of the same leads nowhere), YT already has a ton of those, and yes YT doesn't has a thing like a community.

That in one hand, to encourage and promote difference even if the population underwent an growth explosion.
On the other hand, to acclimate this new population to the traditions of NG, that way the principles of the page wouldn't charge for the worse, in short keeping an historic context.

By now i feel like going on circles, but i think that this is it, i guess even if we are like 3 comments away, maybe that is the problem.

Well OK, let's put it like this: a much bigger community would benefit everyone, a too big community would be impossible to sustain or enjoy on a personal level. Right? I don't believe it'd be that easy for NG to take over the game though, YT is great competition when it comes to media, and FB is great competition when it comes to community. Both of those communities are already basically setting standards for the Internet and for how people behave and expect content to appear. The 'like' behavior that is causing people to either just zero or fiven everything could be considered a consequence of FB, the priority transition from Flash to MP4 could be considered a consequence of YT. NG has a niche, but other fractions are steering the way. In a way I hate how NG is taking after acclaimed features such as activity feeds from other sites, after those same other sites started by taking features from NG... but some features are great to have, regardless of who made them first, and I guess that's the cycle of creation, re-using ideas.

I'd like to say 'grows', I don't want the family like feel to disappear either, but lack of users = lack of funds = lack of users. It's a vicious cycle. It seems it'd be easier to deal with too many users than with too few. Yeah, a flood of speedpaints would suck... and I don't like the fact that speedpaints are allowed right now, but then again videos like the Numa Numa made their debut here way before YT so it'd be hypocritical to try and shut them out. As long as they have a category of their own I guess it's fine.

So your proposition is... strive to maintain the current active userbase ratio we have now from now on? New users have to come from somewhere though, that's the problem, and if the community is too small or inactive those new users won't come. So... well I don't know, I guess I'm getting influenced by everyone speaking of how we have to 'make this place grow!'. It's great as it is, but a litle more activity wouldn't hurt... IMHO...

Hey, do you own a PS3? A member here has a friend who wants (has?) to sell one, with 2 dozen games for 400$... like you, I'm a PC kinda guy, but I haven't built one yet... still on this 10 y/o laptop, struggling for the wifi next door. Can I even play most of these games without the internet? Or GTA V for that matter?!

Nope, sold my two PS2s last year (that I bought on impulse just to play Alien Hominid again), and have no plans on getting any new consoles other than computers. $400 sounds like... probably a great price all games considered. :) Lot of money though!

I don't know, I guess you'd be missing some features without Internet but unlike the PS4 I haven't heard Internet is obligatory for the console itself. No actual experience though. So is GTA V in the package? I can't wait for the PC release...

Finally we are at the same pleace, ok.

No, i too am in favor of the page growing, and indeed, i would love it if it becomes the Behemoth (pun intended) of a page that we described on our discussion, i am fine with it, and i am fine with artist that are already popular to continue getting even more popular, remember my comment about Sexual-Lobster? my problem is with these artist becoming an impediment to the newer or more obscure artist. That has always be the main problem, which is why i made the 2 categories A and B.

For NG to grow and still feel like NG it needs to conserve its own identity, and that is something hard to conserve in a big scale, so my point is that while these things can attract a lot of people over a long period of time, we also need to think about how to correctly integrate the new users, and how to correctly distribute the content of the site so everyone can be seen.

For example i will quote you here: "If it gets to a point where there's just too much, NG could always close their doors for new members (or maybe just for uploaders), maybe move over to invites. That'd probably just make it more popular. :)"

I strongly disagree with this vision, if the page is unable to handle a sudden burst of content, the problem should be addressed as a matter of presentation, organisation, and distribution, but never as a filtering problem, or by invites, that actually made it worse for both categories being them A or B to be noticed. It may have its appeal, for the user that managed to be selected to feed its ego, gain prestige, but it leaves the rest of the other participants out of the equation, precisely because is filtering them out, it can work as an especial even't every now and then, but it doesn't solves my proposed problem, but sure sounds like a nice thing to have, but it has a different function, is related? yes, but is still unrelated.

Well actually The Reward, already was quite popular before hitting NG, it was making noise for some months already on Tumblr and Vimeo, so it was a matter of time for it to arrive to NG, on the other hand i find Snow Hare as a better example for your counter argument.

But in our hyper version, will this still be the case?

I'm defending the speed paints, while a lot of people fear them, even more it would be great if NG could implement live-streams, something that i talked with @VicariousE time ago.

Just took a few thousand characters! :D

Ah, didn't know The Reward was spread elsewhere. I don't do much elsewhere. As for the invite system, that's just a sample idea of how you could shut out an additional overflow of content whilst still keeping the community attractive to new users. When I wrote that I was thinking of how YT is actually running without profit, Google is loosing millions off of it each year. I don't know exactly what factors play into their loss, but they have the biggest potential for ad-revenue out of all the big social communities (integrated in video, content sponsors, copyright holders) so it's got to have to do with their size. After a certain point the balance between revenue/submissions isn't maintainable any longer I guess. That'd be the biggest problem in such a situation, if that is the case. I've always been a bit against MP4 for this reason, they're not space efficient at all. You can fit a hundred normal flashes on one high quality MP4.

Livestreams huh, that'd be pretty cool. And old livestreams stored in an archive, making the speedpaint category redundant? Yeah, speedpaints are creative work so they hold a place, though personally I find the content form a bit pointless. I find myself viewing one occasionally and it's always an impressive watch, but still, I'm just watching someone else do something, I'd rather do something myself, or for the sake of efficiency just see the final piece. Efficient reasoning. :P

Yupp, integration is a problem. This place needs better bait for the users, not just content. A quick tour, a commercial... something fun that shows what this place is all about.

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