Whirlguy 2013-11-21 17:37:23

This censorship post has noticeably gotten more reactions than a regular newspost would get. From the looks of that I would say the userbase thinks there's a lot at stake here. It's interesting to see how much it stirred up the community. I should probably go and read all of it regardless. As for that documentary, the guys who made "Indie Game: The Movie" come to mind. I'm pretty sure a documentary could happen if Edmund McMillen were to contact them.

S3C 2013-11-21 20:40:41

I think derelix brought up some great points in that thread too, but someone called him a troll, and behold the floodgate opens, and like 90% of controversial threads the discussion devolves. Regardless of who initiated the flaming, you would hope the mod(s) would be the better man here, and pragmatically discuss the issue or ignore him if they so vehemently disagree....Insults and accusations NEVER help resolve an issue.

I'm always pleased at how honest and level-headed Tom is in all his responses. And he made it clear that the reason he took it down was not for financial reasons; the whole bit about "being dropped from every advertising agency in existence" was just stated as an aside. Considering how that was in 2007 he was referring to (I think), if was such a big deal the censorship would have become much tighter long ago.

Zachary 2013-11-21 20:47:47

That doesn't really go with what you said @Elitistinen.

" Look like the Fulps couldn't avoid much of the shitstorm either ways"

I would say they avoided practically all of it.

S3C 2013-11-21 20:54:35

not from parts of their userbase zachary.

Doomroar 2013-11-21 21:23:57

Deleted post!!? Oh no! haha joking i read Zachary's response.

Man why do you want people to see a bunch of dicks on the Adult session? haha.

Well this is part of the reality of Tumblr http://your-average-serial-killer.tumblr.com/post/67610713481/take-action-post-to-your-facebook-twitter
Well that a thing is disturbing doesn't makes it illegal, but it gets banned just the same, and i am not necessarily talking about porn, which works just as you said, but sure there is no such a thing as a perma-ban on Tumblr, since it can enter the stream by other users, etc.

No they skip it and lump it with Christmas so i only get one of those... Well i actually hate December with passion, and not necessarily for me being victimized by the festivities, but the whole holy day ambiance is not my thing.

Getting a bank account is quite easy, but all the services suck and are quite abusive, there’s nothing like the wonderful free stuff you just described, using and just possessing a card actually cost you money, the only way to get a decent service in the lines of what you just said is by invitation, and that arrives at random or once you already enter a bank and another one wants you for themselves, so to enter a bank is easy, to be with them is a pain, and to leave leads to your previous point, banks are scum over here, they even charge you if you call for info, i even wonder if they charge you if you log in into your web account to check your credit, they probably do.

Well we can attract a public using bad media coverage, but i can see that backfiring rapidly, from a purely business stand point, that would be just suicidal, of course that view point doesn't respects any code or ethic, it only search monetary profit. So in this regard Tom did the best thing.

I agree, i wouldn't be all that comfortable to know that an artist i don't really know is using resources that could go to sustaining the page, even if the page is in a way sustained by the users which that artist is attracting, so in the end is fine... kinda selfish if i put it like that, because I still don’t like the idea XD.

Well i guess that Tom is searching, and that is why he was talking about the 2 NG, so he could get some new ad companies for the page, by making the place friendlier to a new public.

Wow look at all those links, the media really is exaggerating this, yellow journalist at its finest.

Doomroar 2013-11-21 22:22:01

Wait i just actually watched and 3 of those links are for petitions, what nonsense like if that would actually do something, but that also means that the game is getting people more touched than they should, could it be, maybe, that we Newgrounders are just a bunch of desensitized bastards and the game is really a horrible spawn of the devil? the answer is no, people are just being played by the media like always,and as always is working wonders, and actually none of those mentioned the 3rd mode of the game, some even dare to say that the game has no music, is incredible.

Plus Newgrounds is being mentioned in some of those, some comments even plainly blame us the users for rating the game fairly.

So YTubers want to come here and boycot? hahahaha.

Zachary 2013-11-22 14:24:05

Do you honestly believe that the backlash would have been lesser if he left the game up? To even COMPARE it to removing it is silly. The reason it was left out of most news sites is because Tom decided to remove it. Otherwise they would be on it like a fat kid on cake.

They didn't "create their own" because there is nothing to debate. Someone uploaded it to the site, and the site owners removed it. Even if it is told to the public that way, there is no way Newgrounds can be held at fault.

You are just creating something out of nothing honestly.

Doomroar 2013-11-22 20:50:11

Male/Female filter? you want the LGBT community complaining for sexism? i can already see the post...

Yeah they get your data as long as you use the service.

Ah well that is mostly because i am kinda an hermit, so yeah a bunch of people out of nowhere, skipping over my B-day, year after year, talking about some religious event as an excuse to do dem parties and gifts... gifts that means i have missed 50% of my gifts, and once you hit 16 gifts are the most boring stuff ever, you know what? screw December.

Go on man, enjoy those banks for me.

You mean like Patreon.com http://lazymuffin.newgrounds.com/news/post/874578#comments
It could work, but... isn't that a little de-powering to the artist? let me explain, before we were just fans, we followed, watched, liked, spread the word, if the guy made some merchandise we bitched about it, then we found out "damn this is some really cool ass shirt" so we buy the stuff, that's how it is for now.

On this new system, we are more integrated, and like with stocks on a company, we have a say, a greater influence beyond an opinion regarding the content, is like a kickstarter, but now the artist has to be more aware of pleasing the public, it doesn't has that much freedom, and that is quite ironic since we are talking about censorship.

But granted, it sounds promising, sure, i will say it now though, if such a system ever works, we should put restrictions, so new artist could get a chance to be featured or spotlighted, that way the big names wouldn't be there forever front-paged, pleasing their own audiences, and thus clogging the stream of new and different content, leading us to stagnation, like what happens on Deviant Art, the place is death, because everyone is an ass-licker, and they are doing the same thing, following trends, it can NOT grow (artistically and ethically), the users can't complain (psychologically), if someone ever does, a wave of delusion and escapism activates to avoid reality, but hell isn't the place popular? and aren't those "artist" good at getting donations? yes they are, and that is my point, if we made such a system we need to avoid falling into such a disgusting state.

Newgrounds as a country, with a democracy? no, we are more of a republic, with a really nice monarch. I like the comparison, i wonder how much of that is really true and relevant, i will wait for Zachary's answer.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 11:30:11

After 16 you stop getting nice things and they either give you clothes, or money... well money is cool, but yeah is not the same.

Haha, oh man i see a misunderstanding here, i know that it doesn't has to be obligatory, of course not, but what i say is that those who support are gaining an certain level of authority, and power to sway the content into their tastes, this only affects the other fans after the artist finds itself in that position of appealing to its public, as you just said most of them already do that, now increase this attitude by 4, and we get that none of them will dare to risk and do something new, they will play it safe, and since it becomes a competence for supporters which has a different resource than ad-revenue less people will try and adventure, you may say innovation will give them an advantage in this competence, but that is not the case, i already put the DA example, and the masses go for what they already know and like, and fear plus plainly reject any change or new presentation.

I will said that you are right but, this phenomenon already happens here, indeed we even have this thing called king of the portal, so a system that patronize their artist will only increase this, and is great, but what i am saying is that we need a counter so the ones who are not as popular or are just starting will also get a chance, hell that is already rightnow a problem, but is not as big because we don't get 5 popular creators uploading the very same day, but do you remember those comercials for chips that were getting 2 daily frontpages in an entire month? well i do and that is a perfect example of being eternally frontpaged.

I will explain once the hive mentally establishes itself the content that is unable to adapt will be overshadowed and end censored, not deleted but hidden from public view, and that already happen in places like DA.

that's different you distribute your support from a pool/walllet to all your favorites? it seems to avoid the problem of an user getting overly active into dependence, working it out for the money, but is way less effective as a real solution, since in a year an average user will have lots of favorites it will be too small a contribution. Is not that i don't like the idea, is just that i know where it leads because i have seen it already, so what i want in such a system is a countermeasure to avoid such thing.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 11:50:55

(Part 2 because i feel like i need to elaborate more)
So we have this system when you can support your favorite(s) artist(s), and that is great, i am fine with it, i like it, it works, and it does all the good things you said.

But! it also has some ugly consequences, and is as you just said that only some users will get recognized while others will find it harder to rise, even more if they decide to do something which is outside the normal parameters of the majority when it comes to tastes.

My proposal to avoid this, is to make the artists which are getting already a reasonably big amount of donations to be unable to participate along the other guys, like leagues, in which they could be ranked, so at one point the page itself wouldn't need to promote them, i am thinking of something similar to when we choose the top submissions of the month, and we can read a disclaimer that says something like: "Don't nominate porn, that content can defend itself without our endorsement" so with this it would be something similar. Artists that are already quite famous shouldn't be competing against the rest, since they can attract public by themselves, what we could have for them is a weekly top 5 or top 10 when the "pros" get to show their submissions.

sure that doesn't changes the fact that they would want to go "commercial", and you will say, no that will never happen here, we have better taste and we are critic, we will avoid such content that is clearly made just for the money. Well i am not that sure about that, for one, and in second place, this system is such a nice idea, that i can see it allowing NG to grow, and that means more users, new users, that are not acclimated to the old NG, and will be voicing their wants, and their don't wants, and while is an optional thing for the fans to donate or not, since in the end the artist is living out of this they will have to search ways to encourage donations toward themselves, and i hope you can see where i am going with this, but the majority of people will ban things like that game by Pigpen, and will be glad with Tom doing censorship, not because it was a good PR move, but for entirely stupid reasons, in short, my fear is NG turning into a YT or DA for flash and animations, if we don't take some countermeasures from point 1.

Is everything by everyone, but if the userbase changes, we will be saving a different of NG

Doomroar 2013-11-23 12:16:46

(Part 3 damn straight this can go for long)

We face with a variety of problems, so in this part 3 having talked i think enough about how new users will affect the artist approaches and how, these new direct influx of money can change the direction of their production, i will in this 3rd installment concentrate on the problem of public flow.

We have 2 kind of public flow, the one that is attracted to the page, a public searching for an artist or things, which stays here, new users that arrive, and the things that make them come here, this category lets call it "A".

To the "A" category belong those artist that are already quite famous, and can attract public by themselves.

Then we have "B" which is redistribution (Holy shit yes, this is a socialist model, i know damn Max Weber, but bear with me a little i swear i just realized about now), this category is all the process that the page (and all other pages really) have to fulfill and is to show these users, some new content, show them new artist and promote them.

To this "B" we have small growing artist, and the odd ones that add the variety to the page.

So here, so far so normal, we have to attract new users, and then we once they are here we show them new things, this is also at the same time, tied to the promise that an artist not only can show his work here but that the page has the means to help him/her to grow a fan base, with even promise that in a future they will make a living out of it (ad-revenue, donations, the shop).

You may say, "so what? NG already does all this, in fact every single page that showcases artist does this, that is the standard model, but compared to YT or the art portal with DA, NG moves a smaller scale" yes, but while everyone does this, they do it wrongly with the one ecception being? that's right NG, and even NG has times when it fails and repeats the mistakes of YT and DA, sure this is a rare event, but happens, and it can increase the more a page grows, but what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here?

(Hold it there is part 4)

Doomroar 2013-11-23 12:30:37

(Part 4, what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here? i am late for classes yes is Saturday)

I am talking about artistic stagnation, as we all know in order to get attention, and secure a fan base (for which bad media coverage doesn't really help), the artist will need to create an appealing product, and this of course will end in what we jokingly call "tastes like egoraptor" or following a model that we already know people like, thus keeping it safe, without any risk, this allows the artist to feed itself from already big fan bases.

But why is this bad? i am sure i already said this before but here i will make it more explicit and detailed, we are in category "B" redistribution, is the page duty to show new artist to new public, so the page does just that, but, that the artist is new doesn't means that content is new, we have a wonderful system and is the under-judgement, when we can see all the uploads regardless of who it is, there is now even a monetary incentive to participate, and the next day the top submission will get frontpaged, this is endemic to Newgrounds and is what is saving it from failing like other pages, but is not enough, since artist from category "A" also use this system, thus blocking the influx to category "B", that is a current problem, and is a different problem to artistic stagnation, although it is directly related.

But in this explanation we are in the future, with a system of donations integrated on NG, and we already solved the previous problem so artist from "A" don't use the tools of exposure of the category "B", "well perfect!" you may say, but here is when the actual problem arises, and is what happens with DA and YT, the artist from "B" will imitate the ones from "A" so they could achieve success, thus while the page is getting new users, who are getting introduced to new artist, the content is not changing, and there is no encouragement for it to change, so we get ourselves a page which can host your production, but if this creation of yours is not accommodating itself to a general trend, this creation of yours will remain hidden, unknown practically censored, shunned by the same public who doesn't knows you, and the page that cant help you to become unknown.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 12:51:01

(Part 5, same theme, continuation)

But why is this happening, because in the end is popularity which allows a submission to be frontpaged, and not everyone sees the entirety of the content who falls outside of this feature, for clear time limitations, and while for the hobbits this may not be a big deal, for the artist by profession this becomes an issue, because it can see that unless he changes its vision it will starve (on a variety of way, in this case my connection is less fans, less support, less support...).

And now we have a system which encourages a theme to be produced, so it ends showing the same thing to everyone but from a different source, currently NG has a wonderful amount of variety, so the idea is to achieve this without sacrificing this variety.

To mange a way when different visions are shown to the new users, and they don't have to like it, but at least the page is doing the job of showing this variety.

You may say, that even if it fails to do that, the page will survive, indeed it will grow, and expand, i agree it will in a purely economical way, flourish, but its integrity, will die, it will become another generic page to showcase material, with no variation, with an homogenized and alienated user base, of both creators and consumers, it will be a different NG, in that way the NG of today will be effectively death, and this page could respect your freedom of speech, but it wouldn't matter since no one will see what you said, it will be ignored.

Ignored because is competing against a system that is already ruling the taste and values of the ones which vote, and there is nothing to even the ground, you may say then we could promote those extremely unknown heroes that dare to do something different, but we will have to make a tool that is as effective at showing these heroes as the tools that the category "A" and the mainstream of "B" is already using, if not better.

This is a must because is these guys who do different things the ones who bring the change, if not we face the danger of artistic stagnation, which also atrophies thought.

Indeed this whole time i am talking about the commercialization of art, and how this leads to degeneration, and this is not limited only to art.

(Part 6 solution to this problem)

Doomroar 2013-11-23 13:12:26

(Part 6 conclusion)

So what do i propose to encourage people into doing something different instead of shovelwares?
For me it is clear, that just helping the page to avoid stagnation should be enough. But i am trying to be realistic here, so we i need to come with a way when the artist gets secured a public, or at least that the public is being exposed to its work, and that even if they don't like it the artist wouldn't suffer a great loss, compared to lets say if he did a remix of something already well liked.

So first we need a system to show the artist work, and now a prize awarding the fact that it did something different, this could be called an innovation showcase, when these kind of things get promoted, or just so things like taste don't get so much in the way, lets call it alternative showcase, that way we don't risk making a preconcept related to the quality but we make it clear that it is different, but in the end is still a competition, indeed it has always been, everywhere, so the artist will have to put all their effort, like it should be, that way they can't get away with it with the excuse of it being different, and i know new things are plagued with errors, that is expected.

But is this really enough? is this securing us from stagnation? is just this sufficient to fight against the lure of getting away by following a preexisting formula? no, is not enough.

While we could stop there and get away with it, saying that we fulfilled our duty as a page by showing your work to the masses this is still not enough.

If the mind, of the masses has stagnated all this will end in vain, so we also need to protect the integrity of the consumers of NG, these weirdos full of cynicism, that likes odd things, that defends games about mass shootings, poop jokes, and that which is bizarre, that knows that something should be said without it being censored, regardless of the quality and context, that is willing to see the weirdest of things, to see everything, by everyone (shit i feel like a politician).

And how we do that? well for one standing by our principles (in that case Tom made a mistake), but also educating the new users to know the past of the page, so when the inevitable happens they will know, that NG is more than than a place wen you can go and watch pony porn, and video game parodies, but that this has its own culture, different from all else.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 13:49:41

Man i just finished part 6 and you already replied to the first 2 parts, mmmmh i have this dilemma, when i can start answering your counterpoints, and questions, or i could leave it rest, but fuck it already missed my class (i am such an irresponsible bastard, mom please don't read this...)

Yeah we have wonderful artist that do wonderful random things, but those artist can be easily overthrown, in this new system with a resurrected economy who is not suffering by searching an accompany that would want to do business with them, we are in a big NG, is fictional sure, but this whole activity is of us envisioning, so we are there, at the same levels of the other pages, back in the center, google is afraid of us, we are that big.

And since we are that big, we can talk about mainstream, and users like Catoblepas, yurgenburgen, Master Aardvark, are still not as popular as they should be, even more to put things on perspective, if we combine Sexual-Lobster, Doki (Fat-pie), and the weebl, which are huge here they at best get 150.000 fans which is less than half they have on their YT channels, but even if we unite their YT channels we at best get to the million, you see, that is way too underrated, and it can get worse, so is not like i am being pessimistic, but every single one of those artist we both mentioned deserves a million fans just by themselves, and they are not getting them, and those are the big ones here, now lets think about the middle guys, the small ones, and the beginners, don't get me wrong, i am not saying that these big guys will start doing bad work just to sell (even if Sexual-Lobster's work for machinima wasn't his best), but my point is that the small ones may be pushed to do it, because they really don't have options, and their option is here NG, and if NG changes then they are doomed, and we are doomed because we don't get new people making new things which is my main point, remember we are dealing with the future here.

So we need to grow and embrace all these persons, even the commercials one, but without killing our spirit, and that which feeds our spirit, an while i know that the old one won't betray this (well Egofaptor no longer does any animation...) the new ones may be unable to join this NG, and in time NG will just transition into something, that i already explained and disapprove of.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 14:09:42

"you're saying category A are the famous artists and category B the unknown?" is more under this lines because in this version NG doesn't really needs of external sites to promote itself, so Facebook is not a way to attract people the category "A" already is doing this work.

Well, i am not again of famous users, but of everyone copying what they already did, hoping to become famous too, i know man, they are famous mostly, because they are also good.

The tools of exposure i talk about are already in this page, don't confuse them with external advertisement, you don't see ads for YT or DA here on NG, do you? what i am talking is about easy ways of making the audience to watch the content, which in this case is the current ground gold system, which encourages the users to see 5 submission so they would gain XP, lvl up, and have more voting power.

Mmh indeed is a competitive system, but in an idealism people should go and brows all the submissions of that day and they will watch what they like, i discarded this ideal because in the current model which is so big, even more content would be lost in the sea of the portals, but i agree there must be a better way to just browse and navigate the uploads, with a minimum of loses.

Indeed the FrontPage is just that, the front page, and is one of the tools of exposure, like i already told you NG already has these things, P-Bot is another tool, the interviewer, is another tool, etc.

Again this system is one of a hyper big NG, and is already widely known in the same ranks as YT or FB, haha we can even say YT and FB will be making user pages here on NG.
Why? because the economy of the page is alive, people come and stay, spend money, consume and upload content, and there are the incentives for them to do it here instead of other places, because we offer them opportunities of being exposed, and to work in this.

Yeah i know that they choose the monthly voter randomly, what is new here for me is that i didn't really know that the monetary incentive aquas always there, goes figures, so it seems not even that is enough... (why because otherwise people will rate more actively the under-judgement submissions, and Tom wouldn't have changed he numbers for a submission to get blammed or saved)

Doomroar 2013-11-23 15:16:22

You are wrong DA has a community, but is a piece of manure, which forum shows the poor state in which it deals the it divides itself on "groups" which are niches of themes, it could be like the oversize version of the various crews that we have here on NG, and the community collaborates mostly inside their own clubs, for seasonal events, random features, and the constant Daily Deviations that are user suggested submissions of the works of other users, but this has to be approved first by the admins that is why they are called suggestions.

I feel like either you really don't see my problem, or i haven't been able to explain myself, so i will be the most simpler possible.

1- we added the donation system, which busted the traffic of users which make content for NG, this as a consequence increased the traffic of users that visit the page, and as they start to visit more often they create their own accounts, and integrate themselves to NG, so NG grows, and the advertisement grows with it, to the point that it rivals other pages, and we also have a store, so lets say that the shop also started to go big on businesses.

So far so good.

2- My issues with a sudden growth of the page, being mostly that original content will be overshadowed by a more commercial one like what happened with http://versustvigle.newgrounds.com/movies/ which even got to be fortunate enough and enjoy of a bug who gave him 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th places, in the same day, while it constantly occupied 2 positions each day for practically an entire month. But now i see why you don't see this as a problem, you were ok with this.

And well that was not only an example of overexposure, but also of the low participation on the UJ page(s).

So you see we already don't get people actively seeing all the things that get uploaded to the page (hell i myself am guilty of this, since i only thoroughly see the art portal), then the things that do get front paged are indeed thanks to the votes of the users, and organised by P-Bot, we have very real issue here and is that the unknown users remain unknown, if that is all we have, in this hyper system, but lets go back to our current system, in our current system we also have The interviewer... somewhere around his post appear..., we have Toms post like the one from today "More Amazing People to Follow", we have the forums, but is still insufficient.

Doomroar 2013-11-23 15:33:53

I remind you again, we are not talking about the current NG, but they hyper big one, if you still tell me that we can keep the things as beautifully varied as they are now in such a system, then i really have nothing to say, anyway, i will continue, because at least for me a collapse of the system at such a size is evident, and yeah DA has a community, however is way more divided than NG, the challenge is to keep this family like feel even if the NG population explodes which i think is your point.

But back to were i am, so our current mediums are insufficient, and if we don't create countermeasures, we will be flooded, this tsunami will need a regulation, so the different content, and the unknown content can get a chance to still surface (and no is not my paranoia remember the discussion with the speed-paints and people were fearing a flood of those overshadowing the legit animations?), well in this hyper system this increase so all the more reason for small artist to find it hard to grow (because is harder for them to get noticed), but is these guys, with nothing to lose that can go and make new things, as fact, and i don't think you can argue against this, in the end is those new artist the ones that will keep NG alive, and if we don't protect them and encourage them to come with something different then we will stagnate with a bunch of Egraptors look alike (not like he is bad, but too much of the same leads nowhere), YT already has a ton of those, and yes YT doesn't has a thing like a community.

That in one hand, to encourage and promote difference even if the population underwent an growth explosion.
On the other hand, to acclimate this new population to the traditions of NG, that way the principles of the page wouldn't charge for the worse, in short keeping an historic context.

By now i feel like going on circles, but i think that this is it, i guess even if we are like 3 comments away, maybe that is the problem.

VicariousE 2013-11-23 15:45:37

Hey, do you own a PS3? A member here has a friend who wants (has?) to sell one, with 2 dozen games for 400$... like you, I'm a PC kinda guy, but I haven't built one yet... still on this 10 y/o laptop, struggling for the wifi next door. Can I even play most of these games without the internet? Or GTA V for that matter?!

Doomroar 2013-11-23 19:20:06

Finally we are at the same pleace, ok.

No, i too am in favor of the page growing, and indeed, i would love it if it becomes the Behemoth (pun intended) of a page that we described on our discussion, i am fine with it, and i am fine with artist that are already popular to continue getting even more popular, remember my comment about Sexual-Lobster? my problem is with these artist becoming an impediment to the newer or more obscure artist. That has always be the main problem, which is why i made the 2 categories A and B.

For NG to grow and still feel like NG it needs to conserve its own identity, and that is something hard to conserve in a big scale, so my point is that while these things can attract a lot of people over a long period of time, we also need to think about how to correctly integrate the new users, and how to correctly distribute the content of the site so everyone can be seen.

For example i will quote you here: "If it gets to a point where there's just too much, NG could always close their doors for new members (or maybe just for uploaders), maybe move over to invites. That'd probably just make it more popular. :)"

I strongly disagree with this vision, if the page is unable to handle a sudden burst of content, the problem should be addressed as a matter of presentation, organisation, and distribution, but never as a filtering problem, or by invites, that actually made it worse for both categories being them A or B to be noticed. It may have its appeal, for the user that managed to be selected to feed its ego, gain prestige, but it leaves the rest of the other participants out of the equation, precisely because is filtering them out, it can work as an especial even't every now and then, but it doesn't solves my proposed problem, but sure sounds like a nice thing to have, but it has a different function, is related? yes, but is still unrelated.

Well actually The Reward, already was quite popular before hitting NG, it was making noise for some months already on Tumblr and Vimeo, so it was a matter of time for it to arrive to NG, on the other hand i find Snow Hare as a better example for your counter argument.

But in our hyper version, will this still be the case?

I'm defending the speed paints, while a lot of people fear them, even more it would be great if NG could implement live-streams, something that i talked with @VicariousE time ago.