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Entry #222

Censorship

11/19/13 by Cyberdevil

Here's a quick piece that no parties should be able to find any offense in, from which everyone may fuel their inspiration with interpretations of their choice, of course with these chosen interpretations limited only to interpretations of non-insulting matters.

Maybe you'll see the metaphor within this darkness. Maybe you'll see, that for a creative community where content is moderated by whim and sympathy rather than policy and law, where freedom of expression and artistic creativity is un-allowed to roam free, the path may be dark and dreary.

I don't believe in a future where the media dictates the right of each individual citizen, not in countries nor on communities. I believe that every functioning society or group is a forum where each voice should be heard equally, where everyone has a right to express their innermost desires and doubts, and everyone has a right to express their discontent with said individual, as long as their offense is not a criminal one. The right to express yourself is a fundamental freedom of any democracy, and I like to believe this is a democratic community, one of the last free bastions of the net, a place where everyone can feel at ease, be themselves and view the rest of the world from a distance, objectively, fairly; as tastelessly as they feel a need to.

Censorship is like an aspirin, it doesn't take away the underlying problem, only the symptom. In the case of NG, this symptom being taken away is a big problem. That's my opinion.

I'm speaking of this debate, of which I've spent way too much time browsing through the pages and reading peoples opinions, getting annoyed at some, getting offended by others, entertaining the thought of posting some fierce response but not letting my intentions get the best of me. I already posted my opinion there, but maybe it's time to delve into this matter even further. Let's go back to my early days at NG...

I've never been much for shock-content. When I first visited this site I was both intrigued and disturbed by some of the content that was available, some of it posted for a reason, some of it posted for the sole-purpose of being offensive, but I quickly accepted that it had a place here. Unlike other portals (like Zellomesh, who suddenly decided to delete a bunch of my audio just because I was submitting a lot of it) this place has always been fair, and lived by policy. The staff has admittedly turned from being edgy and rebellious to focusing more on brighter types of creative content, but even so the dark side has been allowed to flourish, users have still been allowed to freely express themselves.

Over the years companies have asked for certain submissions to be taken down for copyright-infringing reasons. Certain submissions (like the Xombie series) have been licensed and thus taken down. Other submissions with clearly copyright-infringing content were even taken down before anyone sent a request for them (like a series of Music Players I'd made back in the day, much to my dismay). In filtering out illegal content, NG has always been sufficiently efficient, even more-so than YT. Whether this has to do with dedication on part of the staff or simply less content to filter I don't know, but even if I haven't liked certain submissions disappearing over the years it's always been in accordance with the law. When I signed up, the use of such content was still a gray zone, but that's all been cleared up over the years. Maybe it's one of the reasons activity eventually dwindled... maybe not. That a hundred or more animations with 'illegal' Nintendo sprites had to be removed really sucked, but there wasn't much that could be done about that, that's how society works after all, in the real world there doesn't seem to be any free haven when it comes to copyright.

Online, however, Newgrounds has always been more of a free haven than any other place, a real oasis for free speech and artistic individuality. But now it seems that individuality may be dying down, all because of one submission, a submission I still haven't even played. I have read so much about it however, that it feels like I've played it myself, and as far as I know there was nothing illegal about this game. It was simply tasteless and outrageous. Tom mentions that removing this game may be the site evolving, that it can be seen as a form of chrysalis... but it seems to me like this is more of a mid-life crisis. Newgrounds is lost. Youtube is taking over (even though their Google+ integration is a great time to turn a few visitors), and NG has lost its niche. It's no longer about the problems of the future, and not really about everything by everyone either but rather a sort of spotlight for creative content. What is NG? Where does its strength lie? Is it impossible to run a site that pleases all audiences? So far this is all my opinion, but what the debate comes down to are two problems that haven't been solved. I'd like to present potential answers to these two problems, that might prevent anything similar from occurring in the future:

1.) The media identifies content submitted to NG as content that Tom has allowed to be submitted.

I suppose this problem originates in the rather small size of the site (compared to other social communities), and the structure of the staff. The online presentation of what NG is and how it works probably plays a big role. In the submission policy it is already apparent that each user is responsible for their own work, but maybe this needs to be clarified. Potential solutions:

- An angled presentation of NewGrounds as a first and foremost user-driven community.
- Separate page for DCMA take-down requests and other inquiries that aren't directly linked to any specific person.
- Automated messages and/or secretary to further distance the site from it's image as a home-based organization.

2. ) A media rage over an offensive submission may cut off financing of the site.

Again, how advertising companies interpret NG should have a big impact on their forgiveness for certain submissions and willingness to partner with the site. The angled presentation and distancing from the personal aspect of running the site might help. It may also require some more unorthodox methods of financing. Potential solutions:

- Re-implementation of the Bastards! collection (as Alter-native mentions), acknowledging that certain submissions are deemed tasteless even by the staff, but as the flagship of freedom of speech and user-based content that the site is, these submissions are still allowed to hold their ground. I'd think this would inspire new artists rather than scare them off, while at the same time showing the media that the administration is not to blame for user-submitted material
- Opening of a fund, funded by optional user-based donations, from which finances could be taken should a crisis really loom and NG can no longer rely at all on advertising to finance the operation.
- Seek sponsorships with other controversial enterprises or companies, or with those that have interest in marketing their services/products under a slogan that solidifies the importance of freedom of speech and expression. More focus needs to be placed on the aspect of freedom!
- Major bitcoin investments at the end of the year, when they will according to Elitistinen be ripe to buy.
- Letting users sell finished products in conjunction to trailers/games/etc, with a chunk of the profit used as provision to finance the service and site.

Additionally, to prevent offending content from offending:

- Higher age-restrictions for material with mature ratings, allowing only logged-in users above a certain age (set in their profile) to view these submissions (this was also suggested in the topic).

I'd hope this issue can be solved to please all parties, without the site becoming subject to media rage and as an affect loosing all financing. My proposition is: make the system able to handle offensive submissions in a satisfactory way and distance the staff from the corporate image, and maybe when the interest in this game has died down, let it be re-submitted. I'm sure there are better ideas than those I have provided, where there is a will there's a way; I hope there's a will.


Comments

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DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

Yes because they are all blind!

12/12/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Aye.


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

They never see it again...

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

There is nothing to see here. O_o


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

We know too much they are going to kill us, run! RU...

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

This reply has been confiscated.


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

Yeah that's the secret.

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Judging by the pill hills, too secret. :P


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

Yeah i agree, the challenge is to divide the line between melancholy and depression.
Also known as the right to be sad.

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Ah, melancholy, that might be the word. Right.


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

Yeah but medication doesn't comes alone, what some people do is to just lump the drugs alone.

Indeed, a lot of things can help as therapy, the person doesn't really needs to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist, or counselor, etc. there are plenty of ways to ease the mind.

Well, when i say it makes your life harder, is that you yourself can not bear it, and it becomes an inconvenience, in that case you are sick, but there are other types of sickness too, which are more hard to address because even after the life quality of the person is deteriorating, for example its very physical health is starting to be neglected, his environment is starting to go into ruins, and his relations with others are breaking down, and yet the person feels fine, even compelled to continue with its current behavior, in that case we also say that the person is sick, even if this one insist that it is fine, the most common case of this is the senility of elderly people.

Yeah the other examples, of getting less and less sleep, being apathetic, or having someone annoying in our lives, they do make life harder, but they are not really problems in us, but caused by others, by our environment, they are things that not even drugs can fix, if someone is an asshole to us no matter how much we drug ourselves, we will be still irritated. And example of being irritated and this being our fault, is when it happens even in cases when is unreasonable to be irritated, and then this starts hampering our lives, then we have a problem, and this could be a sickness, or not, the responsible thing would be to make an study and know why is that such a behavior is happening, but no, instead they choose to send drugs based on general procedures.

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Yeah, that's the way it works around here too. I thought our healthcare was way worse than the rest of the worlds though, a practical approach rather than a personal one, for everything. Unless it's a physical injury they have prescriptions to solve all problems. :/ They're good at handling broken bones, not broken homes or folks alone.

Well sickness is hard to define. I guess a better way to say it would be: that if you are depressed because you're not getting enough D-Vitamin, maybe due to lack of sleep (which burns D-Vitamin at a quicker pace), then you're sick. If you're just depressed because you read too much bad news and start losing hope in the world, the problem lies with your mindset rather than the body's functionality. Well true they're both sicknesses, physical vs mental, but they should be treated differently, when even psychological conditions start getting grouped as regular diseased than people are going to get the wrong treatment...

Indeed.


DoomroarDoomroar

12/11/13

Well if your family dies you get sad, and by 2 months you haven't recovered, then eat some pills!

Crazy i tell you, i guess sickness is when some behavior gets in your daily life and starts making it harder, but come on, they were getting more desperate than usual with that one, of course the sadness of grief will make life harder, but that doesn't means the person is sick, yet again they pass it to 2 years, some people argue that it is still too soon, other that 2 years is plenty for someone to recover, i say they should at least search for a drug free alternative, drugs are after all an aid to help with therapy not the answer itself.

12/11/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Yeah, it's not how it should be. I guess they'd give you pills no matter how long it's been, though, medication is the only official remedy for depression that I know they know of. :/

Like if someone you live with starts annoying you and makes you irritated? Or if you lose interest in the world and become apathetic? Or if you go to sleep later and later and find it harder to sleep earlier? Some things would be better solved without medicine.. as I see it, sickness is something that attacks the body, like a fever, the plague, rabies. Agree completely, drugs are an aid; therapy should be the answer for anything mental. Doesn't have to be going to a psychologist either, there are plenty of ways to change behavioral patterns to change an outlook on life, ex.


DoomroarDoomroar

12/8/13

Well they tried to get away with this:
http://realpsycho.tumblr.com/post/68804574764/follow-realpsycho-tumblr-com-for-more-mental#note-container
And luckily they failed, these are some old news, but the fact that they tried to pass a 2 months long bereavement as a sing for depression is crazy.

12/10/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well it could be a sign of depression, but using any signs to suggest depression is crazy, mood swings are part of being human. What's really a sickness, what's just a thought?


DoomroarDoomroar

12/7/13

Yeah and since it can be so ambiguous, doctors can also use it to issue overmedication, is all on the pharmaceutic business.

12/8/13 Cyberdevil responds:

True, they're getting a kick out of profit off of all modern diseases. Like depression... for most people it's nothing more than a mindset. A regular dose of morning laughter doesn't have the same side effects as a hill of pills, I mean - it has no side effects. :/ Deviences from the sublime pattern of social behavior are becoming diseases...


DoomroarDoomroar

12/1/13

Hahaha, you know OCD makes people sometimes look like they are serious organised, and it gives them an excuse to act like assholes! is perfect for people who like to boss others around XD.

12/1/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Heh, yeah, anybody can use a disease as an excuse if it's socially accepted. :) Reading up on the definition it seems like something anybody could have though. Wonder where the line goes between regular anxiety and this, stuff like hypochondria could be classed as OCD, and pretty much any form of phobia that causes anxiety... or depression... hmm...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/30/13

Well still is quite a long contract.

Well you know how there was a time when everyone was trying to pass himself as someone with OCD to appear more responsible, and less of dicks obsessed with control, mostly women, that if i say so myself on a personal note, may be more of neurotic than OCDish... and lets not talk of what happen with ADHD...

12/1/13 (Updated 12/1/13) Cyberdevil responds:

Yeah, I wonder what the standard is...

ADHD I know about! But I've actually never heard of anyone claiming they had OCD... not even online. I remember the crazily time-consuming medal game OCD+ but that's pretty much it.

EDIT: Btw, just listening to an Eminem track and I realize he's actually speaking about OCD on his track... maybe I have heard these references without really paying any mind to them. O_o


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

That series is quite old already, for an internet series i mean, those contracts can't last that much? 10 years 15 maybe? is he still getting royalties?

Yeah that way i can be safe and people don't think that i am dick haha, oh i wonder if it will be abused like what happened with OCD.

11/30/13 Cyberdevil responds:

No idea, but ten years haven't passed yet! I haven't even been around for ten years yet. :P

OCD's being abused? Well I guess everything'll be abused one way or another... was thinking how view counters on newsposts would be a groovy idea, but that's way too prone too abuse... wouldn't want social interaction to become as much of an obsessive aspect as it is on FB with all those Like buttons...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

Is like they forgot when was that their past took place, or maybe they just want the exposure, or maybe is that Oldgrounds stigma they want to get away and for some reason is haunting them, it probably is the 2nd one.

Is quite recently that is being taken into consideration, so it is still fairly unknown in all aspects and fields.

11/29/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Maybe, though maybe the creators just don't have that much control over which platforms their content is distributed on now that they're under contract.

Ah. It's good it exists though, should be easier to just say 'I have Prosopagnosia so I don't remember faces' and people will be like 'OK, no problem! I'll let you know who I am when you see me!' :P


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

Is always YT, illegally and legally it gets all the uploads.

Oh it comes with grades, some times is just the name, some times is the face that changed, and sometimes i just don't remember until the explanation comes, usually like yeah it is me Jon, you know from that time, and i am aaa yeah, i usually add a "you sure have changed" if it has been long enough.

Surprisingly i am quite decent at those, is more of a long term memory thing centered around people's faces, or a really lesser version of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

11/29/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Yeah, but this one's legal. That's why it's so twisted, it gets submitted here first, gets recognized and licensed, and thus removed, and then when its time has played out on TV it gets back online again... but this time it's on YT instead of NG. That's just not how it's supposed to be!

Ah, well meeting people you haven't seen in a long time is probably a different experience... don't think I've ever done that, actually. So much moving around and people I knew way back live in different countries now. Though I'd never heard of Prosopagnosia before, interesting...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

Unless you censor it, then it gets taken down, haha.

Oh now that is old! but those things usually find its way back to the net.

I just noticed how we are talking equally about hings being taken out and then re-entering the net haha.

Well i prefer to wait too, but really if it goes beyond the hour i just kinda confess, it kinda happens often so is not that hard for me, the awkward part is mostly that feeling that a stranger knows you and it actually is not really an stranger, but you are still oblivious to just who that person maybe XD.

11/29/13 Cyberdevil responds:

lol yeah.

Looks like it's made its way to YT, our main competitor! :/ If the TV channel can get their channel there, they should be able to have it on NG too. What a twist of fate considering it was here first! Alas the injustice of our tormentful world!

Oh, so it goes beyond just forgetting the names and faces of people? I don' think I've had that happen to me earlier, I'm just bad with names, and if I see someone in an unusual setting I won't recognize them unless they reveal themselves. Wouldn't be much good as a spy. :P How are you with memory games btw? Like: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/622281


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

Unless Tom can Fix that with the NewNewgrounds! dun dun dun!

Well yeah the good stuff gets the deals, but also a lot of bad stuff gets promoted on TV, and that is one of the fortes of the internet, that you can choose your content.

Well no, luckily that has not happened yet, i usually manage to snick one "eeeh, sorry i forgot your name", before is too late haha.

11/29/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Dun dun dun indeed (sounds like a Tom Tom)! I was thinking of the New Newgrounds though, and how it'll be difficult to make a New Newgrounds with the image of the Old Oldgrounds forever lingering on in the minds of the worldly populace. As they say: once it's online, you can't get rid of it.

Yeah, and if you're good enough at it, you can find anything here! Shame some stuff is taken away from the net specifically for TV use though, like that Xombie series back in the day.

Heh, my primary tactic in such situations is to just not use names unless absolutely necessary... hoping the name might in some way reveal itself, potentially through the involvement of another person...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/29/13

Yeah but the 4chan community will have to still bear the stigma of all those, eeeh... memes...

Well i don't know this late one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMq3ozw7VME and i can be sure it is rivaling internet production, enough to keep the TV alive, of course i will watch it on my PC hahaha.

It does mostly for me, i don't think other people notice the fact that i can't identify them, haha.

11/29/13 Cyberdevil responds:

True, just like NG will always have to bear its reputation of controversialism.

Haha, crazy... yeah TV might still be a step ahead, but then again it's much easier to find the good stuff on TV. The good stuff gets promoted there, on the Internet everyone is promoting their own content, and it's not on a per-nation basis... it's like global promotional warfare! O_o

Nobody 'say my name's' or 'who am I's in your presence? Lucky. :)


DoomroarDoomroar

11/27/13

A reason? probably the influx of dicks and men stretching their anuses could be a good one, hahaha.

AVI is able to play on Computers with the capability equal to a toaster. (good pun by the way)

Oh no man Bob Ross is ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold, old.
Yeah i too no longer watch TV, and things that are TV related i stream them.

Well when you forget the name and face of your teacher...

Yeah i only remember the office cam.

Well things sure changed!

11/28/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Hah, yeah, good thing there are categories to filter out content you don't want to see. :P

Aha, my first thought was there might be toasters with built in video. Thanks.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook. :P Same here, though there's so much to watch online that traditional watching material falls in shadow.

XD I can see how that'd build for awkward situations!

They sure have!


DoomroarDoomroar

11/27/13

Oh Mr Cyberdevil are you confesing yourself as a member of 4chan? in that case i am sorry for the offence haha. Well u don't really know about anonymous but they go beyond just 4chan.

MKV always had better quality, and AVI was the most smooth of them all, ti worked on toasters, that is something.

I saw him on television, when i was a kid, and he is quite an international figure of the world of painting, like a cultural thing, teaching you how to paint, with a pleasing voice, a funky afro, just great, granted i was too young to even understand the concepts, and it just happens that he is also well known, indeed it is somehow weird that you don't know him, look here there is even an ERB with him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGN5xaQkFk0

Remembering names? i can't even remember faces! it sometimes gets awkward, but i have survived. I see so it was like chat rulete on NG? haha, na i don't think i was around when that hapen, and if i was, i missed it, i really just go from the portals to the front page, i these last years that i have stalked user-pages, and i still avoid the forums.

Well you know, that is really a problem for a certain group of art majors who will make their thesis on the defense of eroticism, and well, good luck to them, even more luck if they want the general public to understand.

11/27/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well technically you cannot be a member, but I used to be a frequent visitor at a time. No problem though, there's probably a reason why the people that there dwell are considered apathetically asocial oddities with attitude problems and abnormal perversities! :P Yeah, anonymous is all over now, but that's where it all began.

Worked on toasters? Am I missing the breadth of that pun? :/

Might have something to do with how I rarely ever watch TV... though I did watch plenty of cartoons as a kid. Haha, nice! One epic battle I'd missed. :)

Haha, I can relate to that. :D Though I don't meet so many people it gets to be a problem...

Well there was no chat (the chat's been that eternally promised feature that almost became a bit of a joke until... they made it!), it was just webcams. You could email the staff (I don't think there was PM back then) if you wanted your webcam listed, and that was it. Webcam page is still up but there's nothing there, here's the wayback version from when there were lots of users: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202023836/http://www.newgrounds.com/webcam/

Oh yeah, there was a time when it was only the office cam! http://web.archive.org/web/20080729070549/http://www.newgrounds.com/webcam/

I've been pretty much everywhere when I've been active, all the forums (though I always end up posting mostly just general and wi/ht), all the wiki pages, all the rankings... it's that obsessive side again. :P

Yeah, I guess it's a problem outside NG too... back in the day maybe what decides what to categorize an artwork as is just how famous the author is...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/25/13

Yeah pretty much my image of them is that of a bunch of trolls, but i may be wrong.

Well my old, oooold, PC was able to run AVI perfectly, but it lagged when it tried to play MP4, on the other hand MKV has always worked.

No, is not Afro-Ninja, is Bob Ross, google him, i am sure you know him.

The one on the chat that linked to NG headquarters?

I know man, i myself am not that much a fan of the erotic arts, and i can already see how this can turn ugly, hahaha.

Na man, i disagree evil will still find its way without money, but sure money is one hell of an incentive to do evil.

11/26/13 Cyberdevil responds:

There is anonymous... but who knows, I just browse the place for the images, I guess there are a lot of visitors who don't actually contribute yet still consider themselves a part of the community...

Oh, that's strange! MP4 and MKV should be pretty alike for performance, but I guess that depends on the size of the file and amount of compression. I've realized I can play AVI files on an external drive, but for MKV/MP4 with higher resolutions I need to move them to my internal drive to watch them without lag. USB speed doesn't cut it.

Actually never saw him before. That's a cool afro though... how did you stumble upon him?

Yeeeah, that was the best one! Users were allowed to have webcams too though, I remember Yoink and eh... NEVR and eh... BlueHippo..... well there were a few pages of users (even some female users O_o), I'm not good at remembering names...

I'm not saying I'm not a fan, it's just difficult to differentiate between traditional art and more erotic art. Like all those classic Da Vinci paintings of naked women, they'll never be considered porn. So, where do you draw the line? Glad that's not my headache though, hope they figure it out...

True that. :)


DoomroarDoomroar

11/24/13

But is the quality better in AVI? dun dun dun.

You don't know Bob Ross and his happy little trees with his magnificent afro!?

Indeed it is not really the storing problem, but the streaming which was giving us trouble, specially because i had this vision of 1 to 4 simultaneous streamers, plus a chat log/viewers. It was quite heavy. The finished stream will then by stored on a sub-location of the art portal, along with the finished images.

No! if it has tits it goes to the dark, kinky, shameful page, that has nothing to do with NG, because we don't want to be related to such filthy pornographic tasteless an questionable submissions, we have to conserve this pure image, so the public will like us, and the companies will play with us! family friendly NG, i can finally wear this tank logo in public, hentai? what is that? oh is eroticism? no idea either, topples? that's a big no-no, too lewd! ugh is man boobs! not even YT has that, an if is not on YT then it will not be on NG either! we probably should remove that penicorn from the store, Oh My God, how did we ever thought of selling such disgusting thing!? good radiance! filthy, FILTHY!

Hahahaha, is not funny, really i laugh just to avoid my tears.

Yeah an old user, has spend more time here... so is... an old user, different... from... a new... user...

I see so this is a republic, with a monarchy who is depended on the dictatorship of money...
Yeah he is not mad at all.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Nooope, MP4 is superior to AVI in all aspects. :) Apart from, maybe, still not being supported to all ancient devices and requiring more computer resources to process and play. Personally I prefer MKV for everything, since it's an open format and has slightly better compression, but MP4 has become the chosen format for tons of consoles and other devices so it seems is pretty much standard now... I remember back when YT was using FLV, ah the good old days...

A Bob with an afro? You wouldn't be speaking of Afro-Ninja would you? :O At least I think his name was Bob...

Yeah, all streaming activity is heavy activity... and to think there are sites dedicated to providing simultaneous streams for hundreds of users, if not more... pretty impressive hardware! Speaking of which, I wish they'd bring back the webcam section too. That was a lo... a bit of fun,

Hahahaha, yeaaaah... I can see the potential problems of this split system in a new light now. :)

Both young and old old users, I mean young users who have grown old, or old users who have grown older. K. Check. We're on the same page. :P

Money is the root of all evil.
Irony?


NewShapeNewShape

11/24/13

I was working off this from the Pigpen twitter, where he said it might be revisited.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZXioCKCIAAj9Oe.png

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Ah, that. Well I read that through the topic too, but that was back before the game was removed... wonder if he'd still consider it after all this attention... will be interesting to see.


DoomroarDoomroar

11/24/13

@NewShape haha, i see so that is what it was, sorry then i misunderstood you.
Well i don't really go to /B/ or /v/, so no idea but yeah i guess that is what they must be doing, since they are a bunch of immature perverts seeking some shock value material.

Well the SuprSarkeesianFaceSmasher was recently re-uploaded, and it was taken down again, so i really have no idea, and the last post by Tom seems to point towards a different NG, so i don't really know if re uploads will occur, maybe what he wants is to just hide the questionable content from public view, like hiding dirt under the carpet, he already admitted that some content here embarrass him, so i really don't have too much hopes of that game making a come back, or other similar games, specially when he keeps talking about new times, and different NG.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Doesn't sound like you think very highly of 4chan users. :P I'm not there much either, though, mostly just hoarding images...

Hmm, removed by the newgrounds moderation team... looks like that's the message that shows up when admins remove content too. Just realized that both those games are indexed by search engines too, it's like the link to NG is already permanent...


NewShapeNewShape

11/24/13

@Doomroar I defend the right for the game to be here too, what I mean is we are in the minority of those who are doing
it for artistic/ reasons. If you look at the Sandy Hook thread on /B/ or /v/(I'm not sure how to resummon threads from there) it has a LOT of replies
to it, the majority of those replies are simply vitriol directed at NG.

The game might return yet, but if it does it won't be in the heat of battle which is the mindset Tom was working off.

For some reason this newspost is crashing my laptop, so I won't be able to directly reply.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

4chan really doesn't make it easy to link to their topics... wonder if that's an intentional thing so that news sources don't scoop up potentially offensive material... bad for SEO, but they don't need SEO. That's interesting.

The game may return... is that news from an official source? If so it sounds like there may still be hope! :)

I was just thinking the scrollbar on this page has gotten real tiny, lots of text to load. :D I remember back in the day comments weren't even split into pages, posts with hundreds of comments were hellish...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/24/13

But think of the colors! the quality, the laziness of the author for not working in another format! haha.

Well sure, but are you going to tell me that you didn't enjoy the The Joy of Painting with Bob!?
That was more of my idea, imagine that show but here on NG, and live! we aggregated some tens of other features, that would make this post too large, but here go on the adventure, if you dare!
http://sabtastic.newgrounds.com/news/post/852800#comments
The development of the idea is currently on hold, because we reasoned that the NG team doesn't has the time nor the resources to work on such a thing, plus the server will cost them some extra $ even if is just the beta server, we presented the idea to some people who said the were interested, but it never really got any wind.

Thinking back now, this one right here must be my longest post on a continual thought string, and it costed me my Saturday class, man that is why i stay away from internet forums i end always spending too much time.

I completely agree.

Wait @NewShape, so that is all we amount to? desensitized 4chan users? i am offended!

Back to you Mr Cyberdevil, i think that by now we have to agree that NG has changed, and some things will have to be put somewhere else. And if that is so, remember that problem about distribution between categories A and B, that is no longer an issue, because we slowly enter into a time of homogenization, i feel so damn stupid right now, i even missed class for nothing, also remember that part of ad companies taking time to understand what NG stands for? no longer a problem either! also haha oh god, this is hilarious, a whole site apart for adult content, that is way better than your idea of using filters, that has its implications, but meh fuck it, is just porn and furries, sure a pity about the tits.
His plan of allowing older users to access different content is good, but... it also goes against what we talked, oh well, this is a good moment to stop caring.

Yeah PigPen has participated on the ClapTrap's tournament, and loses with regularity, hahaha, and he also was working on a game based on a work by an author i appreciate, look here http://fkmtkrazy.blogspot.com/2013/03/restricted-rock-paper-scissors-online.html to collaborate with the FKMT community is great, people are making him look worse than he really is, and he is still talented, a shame about his game.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Haha, I'll agree with the laziness part. :) Flash is really so much more efficient at saving space. For example, if you draw an eyeball once, you can use that same eyeball for all eyeball instances for the entire movie, it'll only be stored as an instance in the library once. With an MP4 each frame is a separate image, so even repeated elements will be generating a new stamp multiple times every second... with regular movies you can't do much about it but for non-FBF animation it's such a waste! Eyeball probably wasn't the best example btw, imagine a background instead. Just a static background in thousands of frames for a few minutes of MP4 animation. It could've been a single image file... well at least the compression's better than AVI...

The Joy of Painting with Bob!? As a matter of fact... I've never watched that, so I could say I've never enjoyed that show. :P I'm sure it's great though. Must be a local thing?

Man that's not just a TON of new ART but a ton of comments... I think I've scooped up the most important parts. So it's actually a plan in progress then... would be fun if it became something, but personally I'd probably be a not very active participator. So much other stuff that'd earn me more satisfaction of actual accomplishment (be it statual, influential or other). Hope it gets off the ground though... and yeah that probably requires some server power. Did you read Bren's post about the new NG architecture btw? I know I saved the link but I can't seem to find it now... think the site was using around 4TB and the new upgrade would give it a total allotment of at least... 20? Man I haven't memorized them numbers at all... the point was: there'll be a whole lot of room for expansion! Bandwidth is of course a different matter though...

I should probably just stay away from the Internet. I spend way too much time here. :P

Yes, times are changing, and some things may have to move. At least I am glad they may not have to removed, and in the end it'll still all be available through the same platform (at least if it all goes according to the outlined plan). Yeah, no problem with advertisers, and not the same problem with categories (though showcasing the unknown is still the same situation), but as for the entire site dedicated to adult content (wonder if that'd be newgrounds.xxx btw, the domain already pointing to the adult section)... I'm wondering how the filtering system would work. Sure some submissions really are just hentai, but for some there's a rather thin line, would stuff like The Modifuckers or Rebecca go to the other site? And what about all adult art, realistic nude portraits and hentai alike? Feels like it might be a real challenge to rightly separate the content, but maybe I'm just overthinking it... will be interesting to see how they work it out. As long as it's still all accessible via NG then it sounds good, tit tidbits would still be here, just not viewable alongside everything else.

Older users? I read that as users who had been here for a specific amount of time, nothing to do with age... gotta re-read the comment later... yeah, all of this goes against the freedom of expression thing, but I've voiced my opinion so... well what more to do. Wouldn't want Tom to stop caring about the place and sell out, hopefully it'll maintain its core values to the biggest possible extent.

You don't fail until you stop trying. :) Yeah, he doesn't seem so bad. On that note, he doesn't seem so mad either, judging by recent Twitters... looks like this will all blow over soon.


NewShapeNewShape

11/24/13

I wasn't trying to be intellectually dishonest, I used the word 'retweet' meaning they contacted him first and he continued the conversation which changes the defense of the game to something personal. I'm not trying to say pigpen is sick or make any attacks on any person's character only that the conversation is personalised unlike the other offensive games/movies.
The handle was reported in the news as being a 'family account' but since the mother is the only one making statements, and other tweets mention personal family matters it doesn't leave much room to who could be operating the account or at least the messages coming through are reported back.
If you look at the pms Ryan tweeted, Tom says it was a charity account that contacted him first mentioning another parent had discovered it and was shocked by it.

Another log:

@googumproduce
When you decided to make this game did you think about how much more pain it might cause the families?

PiGPEN ‏@googumproduce 20 Nov

@newsjunkie365 i decided it couldnt possibly compare to what they already went through and i didnt go out of my way to push it on them

10:55 PM - 20 Nov 13 · Details
newsjunkie365 ‏@newsjunkie365 20 Nov

@googumproduce So as long as the pain isn't as extreme as what they felt initially it's okay? Are you really that insensitive?

PiGPEN ‏@googumproduce 20 Nov

@newsjunkie365 its a cost-benefit analysis. i judged the potential benefit was greater than the potential damage.

This is what Tom posted on the BBS:
"Now PiGPEN felt compelled to do it a second time, this time with even younger victims and even more realism and darkness. This time it has a political message but I don't personally buy those motives."

My personal thoughts are that I would have kept the game, America has school shooting every couple of months or so and I don't think any one of them is worse than another, they usually have the same ending with the perpetrator shot through the head at his own hand .
But I think it's important to have the entirety of the argument present so we can make a better assessment.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well actually you wrote 'tweet back', but that's a misinterpretation on my part. The conversation below didn't sound as offensive as I thought it would, but that's true, this really is the first personal school shooting game out there as far as I know... I guess naming schools is uncool but OK, but naming people is where the line is drawn. Aha, good knowing.

Same here, though it feels the argument's done its deed now. It seems like the community may be on the brink of involuntary change, but Tom's last post in the ^ topic provides what seems to be a pretty viable solution for keeping offensive content of the past; keeping all parts of the site afloat yet structured to avoid clashes; gearing the community towards a brighter future... may be a turning of the tide. Both a bit melancholy and inspiring IMO, I hope it'll be for the better!


NewShapeNewShape

11/24/13

This is the conversation log. This is pretty soon after it was blocked so I think Tom didn't want to start arguing with the mother and any others that appear defending it.
He did (well Ross did) defend Vtech Rampage, but there weren't social media accounts which is the added wrinkle to it.
This time around, he would probably try (to defend it) to a certain extent but you have the old Vtech game on the Pigpen account where you kill a holocaust survivor and say 'Put that Jew back in the oven'. Dailymail is the only paper which had the wits to pick up on his previous work, but others would have had the game stayed online. So if the site is arguing with the parents and those on the games defense are really just 4chan users
who by their own definition are apathetic anyway, should he bother continuing? You can see by his last posts being about
the hare cartoon, he prefers NG harbour that sort of stuff rather than causing controversy for the sake of it.

Team Vicki Soto ‏@TeamVickiSoto 19 Nov
@googumproduce can we ask you a few questions about your "game"?

5:52 AM - 19 Nov 13 · Details
PiGPEN ‏@googumproduce 19 Nov

sure, but you'd learn more by "playing it" @TeamVickiSoto

Team Vicki Soto ‏@TeamVickiSoto 19 Nov

@googumproduce we are asking why you would even make such a "game"?

6:19 AM - 19 Nov 13 · Details
PiGPEN ‏@googumproduce 19 Nov

@TeamVickiSoto since you have no interest in playing it i'll crib note it for you: its about importance of gun control.

Team Vicki Soto ‏@TeamVickiSoto 19 Nov

@googumproduce oh really? The "slaying of sandy hook" is the title. Wow that sure sounds like an educational game to us

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

So Team Vicki Soto is the parent? I wouldn't have known if you didn't mention it... sure PiGPEN knew? The way you wrote earlier it sounded like he contacted them and explicitly asked them to play... bit of a way to angle the statement. :/ Thanks for the log though...

Actually just noticed I knew about Pigpen before, heard his verse in the recent ClabTrap tournament but didn't pay attention to the name... really a shame about this game because he seemed like a talented artist too. Who's last post's about the hare cartoon?


NewShapeNewShape

11/23/13

Pigpen made it personal when he started to tweet back to the parent of the murdered girl telling her to play it.
I think that's the attitude Tom and co are trying to censor, not so much the flash game. This is consistent with other deletions I believe. He doesn't believe the effort in protecting it, is worth it if he feels it's just for the sake of trolling.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

That is a sick attitude... I thought I'd skimmed through everything important in the topic though, was this mentioned elsewhere? Puts the whole thing in a rather different perspective.


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

Finally we are at the same pleace, ok.

No, i too am in favor of the page growing, and indeed, i would love it if it becomes the Behemoth (pun intended) of a page that we described on our discussion, i am fine with it, and i am fine with artist that are already popular to continue getting even more popular, remember my comment about Sexual-Lobster? my problem is with these artist becoming an impediment to the newer or more obscure artist. That has always be the main problem, which is why i made the 2 categories A and B.

For NG to grow and still feel like NG it needs to conserve its own identity, and that is something hard to conserve in a big scale, so my point is that while these things can attract a lot of people over a long period of time, we also need to think about how to correctly integrate the new users, and how to correctly distribute the content of the site so everyone can be seen.

For example i will quote you here: "If it gets to a point where there's just too much, NG could always close their doors for new members (or maybe just for uploaders), maybe move over to invites. That'd probably just make it more popular. :)"

I strongly disagree with this vision, if the page is unable to handle a sudden burst of content, the problem should be addressed as a matter of presentation, organisation, and distribution, but never as a filtering problem, or by invites, that actually made it worse for both categories being them A or B to be noticed. It may have its appeal, for the user that managed to be selected to feed its ego, gain prestige, but it leaves the rest of the other participants out of the equation, precisely because is filtering them out, it can work as an especial even't every now and then, but it doesn't solves my proposed problem, but sure sounds like a nice thing to have, but it has a different function, is related? yes, but is still unrelated.

Well actually The Reward, already was quite popular before hitting NG, it was making noise for some months already on Tumblr and Vimeo, so it was a matter of time for it to arrive to NG, on the other hand i find Snow Hare as a better example for your counter argument.

But in our hyper version, will this still be the case?

I'm defending the speed paints, while a lot of people fear them, even more it would be great if NG could implement live-streams, something that i talked with @VicariousE time ago.

11/24/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Just took a few thousand characters! :D

Ah, didn't know The Reward was spread elsewhere. I don't do much elsewhere. As for the invite system, that's just a sample idea of how you could shut out an additional overflow of content whilst still keeping the community attractive to new users. When I wrote that I was thinking of how YT is actually running without profit, Google is loosing millions off of it each year. I don't know exactly what factors play into their loss, but they have the biggest potential for ad-revenue out of all the big social communities (integrated in video, content sponsors, copyright holders) so it's got to have to do with their size. After a certain point the balance between revenue/submissions isn't maintainable any longer I guess. That'd be the biggest problem in such a situation, if that is the case. I've always been a bit against MP4 for this reason, they're not space efficient at all. You can fit a hundred normal flashes on one high quality MP4.

Livestreams huh, that'd be pretty cool. And old livestreams stored in an archive, making the speedpaint category redundant? Yeah, speedpaints are creative work so they hold a place, though personally I find the content form a bit pointless. I find myself viewing one occasionally and it's always an impressive watch, but still, I'm just watching someone else do something, I'd rather do something myself, or for the sake of efficiency just see the final piece. Efficient reasoning. :P

Yupp, integration is a problem. This place needs better bait for the users, not just content. A quick tour, a commercial... something fun that shows what this place is all about.


VicariousEVicariousE

11/23/13

Hey, do you own a PS3? A member here has a friend who wants (has?) to sell one, with 2 dozen games for 400$... like you, I'm a PC kinda guy, but I haven't built one yet... still on this 10 y/o laptop, struggling for the wifi next door. Can I even play most of these games without the internet? Or GTA V for that matter?!

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Nope, sold my two PS2s last year (that I bought on impulse just to play Alien Hominid again), and have no plans on getting any new consoles other than computers. $400 sounds like... probably a great price all games considered. :) Lot of money though!

I don't know, I guess you'd be missing some features without Internet but unlike the PS4 I haven't heard Internet is obligatory for the console itself. No actual experience though. So is GTA V in the package? I can't wait for the PC release...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

I remind you again, we are not talking about the current NG, but they hyper big one, if you still tell me that we can keep the things as beautifully varied as they are now in such a system, then i really have nothing to say, anyway, i will continue, because at least for me a collapse of the system at such a size is evident, and yeah DA has a community, however is way more divided than NG, the challenge is to keep this family like feel even if the NG population explodes which i think is your point.

But back to were i am, so our current mediums are insufficient, and if we don't create countermeasures, we will be flooded, this tsunami will need a regulation, so the different content, and the unknown content can get a chance to still surface (and no is not my paranoia remember the discussion with the speed-paints and people were fearing a flood of those overshadowing the legit animations?), well in this hyper system this increase so all the more reason for small artist to find it hard to grow (because is harder for them to get noticed), but is these guys, with nothing to lose that can go and make new things, as fact, and i don't think you can argue against this, in the end is those new artist the ones that will keep NG alive, and if we don't protect them and encourage them to come with something different then we will stagnate with a bunch of Egraptors look alike (not like he is bad, but too much of the same leads nowhere), YT already has a ton of those, and yes YT doesn't has a thing like a community.

That in one hand, to encourage and promote difference even if the population underwent an growth explosion.
On the other hand, to acclimate this new population to the traditions of NG, that way the principles of the page wouldn't charge for the worse, in short keeping an historic context.

By now i feel like going on circles, but i think that this is it, i guess even if we are like 3 comments away, maybe that is the problem.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well OK, let's put it like this: a much bigger community would benefit everyone, a too big community would be impossible to sustain or enjoy on a personal level. Right? I don't believe it'd be that easy for NG to take over the game though, YT is great competition when it comes to media, and FB is great competition when it comes to community. Both of those communities are already basically setting standards for the Internet and for how people behave and expect content to appear. The 'like' behavior that is causing people to either just zero or fiven everything could be considered a consequence of FB, the priority transition from Flash to MP4 could be considered a consequence of YT. NG has a niche, but other fractions are steering the way. In a way I hate how NG is taking after acclaimed features such as activity feeds from other sites, after those same other sites started by taking features from NG... but some features are great to have, regardless of who made them first, and I guess that's the cycle of creation, re-using ideas.

I'd like to say 'grows', I don't want the family like feel to disappear either, but lack of users = lack of funds = lack of users. It's a vicious cycle. It seems it'd be easier to deal with too many users than with too few. Yeah, a flood of speedpaints would suck... and I don't like the fact that speedpaints are allowed right now, but then again videos like the Numa Numa made their debut here way before YT so it'd be hypocritical to try and shut them out. As long as they have a category of their own I guess it's fine.

So your proposition is... strive to maintain the current active userbase ratio we have now from now on? New users have to come from somewhere though, that's the problem, and if the community is too small or inactive those new users won't come. So... well I don't know, I guess I'm getting influenced by everyone speaking of how we have to 'make this place grow!'. It's great as it is, but a litle more activity wouldn't hurt... IMHO...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

You are wrong DA has a community, but is a piece of manure, which forum shows the poor state in which it deals the it divides itself on "groups" which are niches of themes, it could be like the oversize version of the various crews that we have here on NG, and the community collaborates mostly inside their own clubs, for seasonal events, random features, and the constant Daily Deviations that are user suggested submissions of the works of other users, but this has to be approved first by the admins that is why they are called suggestions.

I feel like either you really don't see my problem, or i haven't been able to explain myself, so i will be the most simpler possible.

1- we added the donation system, which busted the traffic of users which make content for NG, this as a consequence increased the traffic of users that visit the page, and as they start to visit more often they create their own accounts, and integrate themselves to NG, so NG grows, and the advertisement grows with it, to the point that it rivals other pages, and we also have a store, so lets say that the shop also started to go big on businesses.

So far so good.

2- My issues with a sudden growth of the page, being mostly that original content will be overshadowed by a more commercial one like what happened with http://versustvigle.newgrounds.com/movies/ which even got to be fortunate enough and enjoy of a bug who gave him 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th places, in the same day, while it constantly occupied 2 positions each day for practically an entire month. But now i see why you don't see this as a problem, you were ok with this.

And well that was not only an example of overexposure, but also of the low participation on the UJ page(s).

So you see we already don't get people actively seeing all the things that get uploaded to the page (hell i myself am guilty of this, since i only thoroughly see the art portal), then the things that do get front paged are indeed thanks to the votes of the users, and organised by P-Bot, we have very real issue here and is that the unknown users remain unknown, if that is all we have, in this hyper system, but lets go back to our current system, in our current system we also have The interviewer... somewhere around his post appear..., we have Toms post like the one from today "More Amazing People to Follow", we have the forums, but is still insufficient.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Oh, Groups. I stand corrected then. Can't remember that being there last time I checked, must've been a while... actually, since YouTube is now integrated with Google+ I guess they have a community too, though badly synchronized with the content. The NG community stands out amongst the competition! I do see DA have a Site Tour though, this place could really use something similar. Ideas of a contest to create a creative infomercial for new users of the site pops into mind...

You mean boosted the traffic? Yupp, so far so good...

Oh yeah, I remember that! Getting four spots in the daily top 5 sparked quite a debate. :D With the new voting requirements that shouldn't happen again... but as for all those submissions, I really don't mind them. They may have flooded the portal for a while but they were all fun. At the start they didn't win any awards either, it took a while for them to gain recognition, and considering over 80 submissions won less than 30 awards it seems you're exaggerating a bit. :) As long as these things are not constant, and the content is good, I'm OK with it. Shovelware is a different thing.

Overexposure... yeah, maybe, but it never lasts that long. It would be worse if works like these were never submitted to NG in the first place, and unless there's better content any good entertainment should be good for traffic. I sympathize with users getting pushed out of the Top 5 by more popular artists, even if their work is good, but that's always been a problem. Even with a small community, new users never seem to get recognition until they've submitted a few pieces at least, unless their first submission is something amazing, like with Snow Hare or The Reward (in which case you can see the system is working as it should right now, they both got daily first and were submitted by brand new users with no previous activity on the site). So even with an increase in traffic, would things be that different? If it gets to a point where there's just too much, NG could always close their doors for new members (or maybe just for uploaders), maybe move over to invites. That'd probably just make it more popular. :)

Low participation on the UJ pages... that shouldn't be a problem if this place brings in more visitors. Sure having the Portal as the main page, not allowing the majority of users to simply skip to the good stuff, would force more participation, but with a bigger userbase I believe there'd still be a fair share of dedicated users. Personally I think the new UJ sections are harder to navigate and way too visual, I prefer the Portal, but not everyone is a power user I guess. :)

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but we already have these problems. Would it really be different if the site was bigger? I guess too big = impersonal, but at least right now the userbase could use a boost. I really don't mind either way though, the way it is there's plenty of great content, plenty of great users, plenty of interactivity and creative enterprises. But if a visitor increase would bring in more money that'd benefit everyone. And paradoxically, more money might bring a visitor increase...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

"you're saying category A are the famous artists and category B the unknown?" is more under this lines because in this version NG doesn't really needs of external sites to promote itself, so Facebook is not a way to attract people the category "A" already is doing this work.

Well, i am not again of famous users, but of everyone copying what they already did, hoping to become famous too, i know man, they are famous mostly, because they are also good.

The tools of exposure i talk about are already in this page, don't confuse them with external advertisement, you don't see ads for YT or DA here on NG, do you? what i am talking is about easy ways of making the audience to watch the content, which in this case is the current ground gold system, which encourages the users to see 5 submission so they would gain XP, lvl up, and have more voting power.

Mmh indeed is a competitive system, but in an idealism people should go and brows all the submissions of that day and they will watch what they like, i discarded this ideal because in the current model which is so big, even more content would be lost in the sea of the portals, but i agree there must be a better way to just browse and navigate the uploads, with a minimum of loses.

Indeed the FrontPage is just that, the front page, and is one of the tools of exposure, like i already told you NG already has these things, P-Bot is another tool, the interviewer, is another tool, etc.

Again this system is one of a hyper big NG, and is already widely known in the same ranks as YT or FB, haha we can even say YT and FB will be making user pages here on NG.
Why? because the economy of the page is alive, people come and stay, spend money, consume and upload content, and there are the incentives for them to do it here instead of other places, because we offer them opportunities of being exposed, and to work in this.

Yeah i know that they choose the monthly voter randomly, what is new here for me is that i didn't really know that the monetary incentive aquas always there, goes figures, so it seems not even that is enough... (why because otherwise people will rate more actively the under-judgement submissions, and Tom wouldn't have changed he numbers for a submission to get blammed or saved)

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Ah, got it. A first step to promote lesser known artists could be to stop ranking submissions in search results based solely on popularity, and add titles/sizes/formats to a users list of choices. Or maybe they could add a 'Surprise Me' checkbox (like Google's Get Lucky) that takes you to one of the least viewed submissions within the more relevant range.

True, promotion via FB is promoting FB alongside NG, NG promotion would promote only NG. Which is why those embeds could really be a big thing...

It's common? Man I'm probably watching submissions most people don't watch then, seems I rarely stumble upon anything that's just out to copy or users just out to attain fame. The games8 submissions were the closest I ever got to that, but they seem to have stopped streaming in...

Actually I do see plenty of ads for YT and DA. On the social media buttons on the frontpage. On user profiles. After user submissions. In submission comments. In embedded videos on newsposts... the promotions everywhere, and for the embeds specifically it's subliminal promotion. It's like we take it for granted, YT is so big now it's an element we don't even think about, but you'll never see NG embeds on YT, they're not opening up for competition the same way... I get what you're saying though. On that note, the importance of Grounds Gold was also drastically reduced with the redesign, but who knows if it's for either good or bad, users who have been here since ancient times and attained incredibly high status might scare away users more than they inspire them... though it didn't work that way for me when I found this place.

Indeed.

Indeed again!

That'd be an awesome future. :) Yeah, it's all about incentives.. right now it seems the biggest incentive for most people is audience... but NG can't compete with that. I believe the main incentives are: the community, the personality, the creativity, the freedom; that element which might not have the same effect on all users - stats. Back in the day it feels that was one of the biggest lures, maybe the EXP game hasn't been built upon as much as it could have...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

Man i just finished part 6 and you already replied to the first 2 parts, mmmmh i have this dilemma, when i can start answering your counterpoints, and questions, or i could leave it rest, but fuck it already missed my class (i am such an irresponsible bastard, mom please don't read this...)

Yeah we have wonderful artist that do wonderful random things, but those artist can be easily overthrown, in this new system with a resurrected economy who is not suffering by searching an accompany that would want to do business with them, we are in a big NG, is fictional sure, but this whole activity is of us envisioning, so we are there, at the same levels of the other pages, back in the center, google is afraid of us, we are that big.

And since we are that big, we can talk about mainstream, and users like Catoblepas, yurgenburgen, Master Aardvark, are still not as popular as they should be, even more to put things on perspective, if we combine Sexual-Lobster, Doki (Fat-pie), and the weebl, which are huge here they at best get 150.000 fans which is less than half they have on their YT channels, but even if we unite their YT channels we at best get to the million, you see, that is way too underrated, and it can get worse, so is not like i am being pessimistic, but every single one of those artist we both mentioned deserves a million fans just by themselves, and they are not getting them, and those are the big ones here, now lets think about the middle guys, the small ones, and the beginners, don't get me wrong, i am not saying that these big guys will start doing bad work just to sell (even if Sexual-Lobster's work for machinima wasn't his best), but my point is that the small ones may be pushed to do it, because they really don't have options, and their option is here NG, and if NG changes then they are doomed, and we are doomed because we don't get new people making new things which is my main point, remember we are dealing with the future here.

So we need to grow and embrace all these persons, even the commercials one, but without killing our spirit, and that which feeds our spirit, an while i know that the old one won't betray this (well Egofaptor no longer does any animation...) the new ones may be unable to join this NG, and in time NG will just transition into something, that i already explained and disapprove of.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well since it's six parts long I had to take each part at a time... but maybe responses would've been more consistent if I read through everything at once... anyway, will go through the last two after I finish typing this... had to take a break from reading haha, so much! Text blocks has me thinking about Legos now btw..

Maybe you should add the spoiler note before you mention something she shouldn't read? :P Hope the class wasn't anything important...

So.. your point is that if NG grows too big the smaller artists won't have a reason to be here? There is one flaw to that theory though, which is the manual front page selection and the community. There is no community on DA or YT, there are comments on a per-submission basis, but there is really no way for users to get together and interact, to recommend new animations to watch, to collaborate or make people aware of new artists. That's probably what's keeping those communities from developing a bond to the user, that and the lack of staff that aren't just emplayed for a paycheck. I'm not saying this system would be sustainable if it grows too big, but even in the peak years around 2007 it was doing fine; the place wasn't just flooded by the popular artists. Of course back then the portal was the main page... things might turn out different now...

Already explained? You know, on second thought I think I'll read the other two responses before I post this response... hmm, you mean: keep an open mind?


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

(Part 6 conclusion)

So what do i propose to encourage people into doing something different instead of shovelwares?
For me it is clear, that just helping the page to avoid stagnation should be enough. But i am trying to be realistic here, so we i need to come with a way when the artist gets secured a public, or at least that the public is being exposed to its work, and that even if they don't like it the artist wouldn't suffer a great loss, compared to lets say if he did a remix of something already well liked.

So first we need a system to show the artist work, and now a prize awarding the fact that it did something different, this could be called an innovation showcase, when these kind of things get promoted, or just so things like taste don't get so much in the way, lets call it alternative showcase, that way we don't risk making a preconcept related to the quality but we make it clear that it is different, but in the end is still a competition, indeed it has always been, everywhere, so the artist will have to put all their effort, like it should be, that way they can't get away with it with the excuse of it being different, and i know new things are plagued with errors, that is expected.

But is this really enough? is this securing us from stagnation? is just this sufficient to fight against the lure of getting away by following a preexisting formula? no, is not enough.

While we could stop there and get away with it, saying that we fulfilled our duty as a page by showing your work to the masses this is still not enough.

If the mind, of the masses has stagnated all this will end in vain, so we also need to protect the integrity of the consumers of NG, these weirdos full of cynicism, that likes odd things, that defends games about mass shootings, poop jokes, and that which is bizarre, that knows that something should be said without it being censored, regardless of the quality and context, that is willing to see the weirdest of things, to see everything, by everyone (shit i feel like a politician).

And how we do that? well for one standing by our principles (in that case Tom made a mistake), but also educating the new users to know the past of the page, so when the inevitable happens they will know, that NG is more than than a place wen you can go and watch pony porn, and video game parodies, but that this has its own culture, different from all else.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Independent of the contribution system previously spoken of? I thought this was all leading up to some twist on that feature... but an innovation showcase definitely seems like an idea!

So far I'm not seeing the stagnation problem though, everyday the Top 5 submissions contain something new, in both games and animations, there's plenty of plot innovation. I try to check out all five everyday and I am surprised by how different each submission is; how many new ideas pop up that I'd have thought someone would have used a long time ago. I'm all for the competition though, it wouldn't just keep the place alive, but also maybe make the weird (and at times disturbing) socially acceptable in a new way; indeed, make everyone aware of what freedom of expression truly means. While they're at it though they should add some rules as to limit the levels of (personal) obscenity that can be included. There are already rules prohibiting certain content forms so that's nothing new, but when something that is technically accepted is taken out of the system it's clear the rules supposed to regulate content aren't adequate any longer.

Anyway, I agree completely; introducing new users to page history is something the current site isn't very good at. The entire History section is really hidden deep deep down, new users commonly post questions already answered in the Wiki, which I assume is because they don't find it. It's an obscure page with very fragmented bits of information... that could definitely improve.

As for other ways to promote user content, an embed feature would be the most useful thing. Without that people are embedding YouTube versions of NG content just so that it can be spread around the net. Unless it'd be too resource-intense a feature for the servers... that'd be the promotional feature of the decade, way better than the Fan Net from way back (though I wish they'd bring that back too).


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

(Part 5, same theme, continuation)

But why is this happening, because in the end is popularity which allows a submission to be frontpaged, and not everyone sees the entirety of the content who falls outside of this feature, for clear time limitations, and while for the hobbits this may not be a big deal, for the artist by profession this becomes an issue, because it can see that unless he changes its vision it will starve (on a variety of way, in this case my connection is less fans, less support, less support...).

And now we have a system which encourages a theme to be produced, so it ends showing the same thing to everyone but from a different source, currently NG has a wonderful amount of variety, so the idea is to achieve this without sacrificing this variety.

To mange a way when different visions are shown to the new users, and they don't have to like it, but at least the page is doing the job of showing this variety.

You may say, that even if it fails to do that, the page will survive, indeed it will grow, and expand, i agree it will in a purely economical way, flourish, but its integrity, will die, it will become another generic page to showcase material, with no variation, with an homogenized and alienated user base, of both creators and consumers, it will be a different NG, in that way the NG of today will be effectively death, and this page could respect your freedom of speech, but it wouldn't matter since no one will see what you said, it will be ignored.

Ignored because is competing against a system that is already ruling the taste and values of the ones which vote, and there is nothing to even the ground, you may say then we could promote those extremely unknown heroes that dare to do something different, but we will have to make a tool that is as effective at showing these heroes as the tools that the category "A" and the mainstream of "B" is already using, if not better.

This is a must because is these guys who do different things the ones who bring the change, if not we face the danger of artistic stagnation, which also atrophies thought.

Indeed this whole time i am talking about the commercialization of art, and how this leads to degeneration, and this is not limited only to art.

(Part 6 solution to this problem)

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Well not only popularity, but also user recommendation and chance. Remember the treasure hunts for hidden gems? Follow Fridays where users suggest artists without the fanbase they deserve? Users can even send Tom a PM with submission tips, and they might be added. So it's partly about popularity, but also about chance and about the views of the users. That's a lot of work for one individual though... don't know if everyone at NG HQ work together on filtering out stuff to the FrontPage or if it really is a one-man job but either way, the way it works, there's room for everybody. I guess the problem with a big NG would be that there are so many artists that all of them don't have space to be showcased... but are we actually speaking of potential problems if NG grows huge? Wouldn't that be a good thing? There are cons with everything but I'd think the pros outweigh them...

I think we agree that variation; acknowledging less known users; letting everyone have an equal chance are great aspects of this site... as for commercialization: users are able to use Patreon or Flattr if they like, independability, right now. So far it hasn't led to any artistic stagnation, though commercialism is definitely leading some artists to other communities with promises of greater riches... plenty of popular users here post to other communities as well. I'm still not getting how an optional contribution system would be able to impact how all of this works if its abuse is prevented buuut, onwards to the solution...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

(Part 4, what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here? i am late for classes yes is Saturday)

I am talking about artistic stagnation, as we all know in order to get attention, and secure a fan base (for which bad media coverage doesn't really help), the artist will need to create an appealing product, and this of course will end in what we jokingly call "tastes like egoraptor" or following a model that we already know people like, thus keeping it safe, without any risk, this allows the artist to feed itself from already big fan bases.

But why is this bad? i am sure i already said this before but here i will make it more explicit and detailed, we are in category "B" redistribution, is the page duty to show new artist to new public, so the page does just that, but, that the artist is new doesn't means that content is new, we have a wonderful system and is the under-judgement, when we can see all the uploads regardless of who it is, there is now even a monetary incentive to participate, and the next day the top submission will get frontpaged, this is endemic to Newgrounds and is what is saving it from failing like other pages, but is not enough, since artist from category "A" also use this system, thus blocking the influx to category "B", that is a current problem, and is a different problem to artistic stagnation, although it is directly related.

But in this explanation we are in the future, with a system of donations integrated on NG, and we already solved the previous problem so artist from "A" don't use the tools of exposure of the category "B", "well perfect!" you may say, but here is when the actual problem arises, and is what happens with DA and YT, the artist from "B" will imitate the ones from "A" so they could achieve success, thus while the page is getting new users, who are getting introduced to new artist, the content is not changing, and there is no encouragement for it to change, so we get ourselves a page which can host your production, but if this creation of yours is not accommodating itself to a general trend, this creation of yours will remain hidden, unknown practically censored, shunned by the same public who doesn't knows you, and the page that cant help you to become unknown.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Late for classes with class!

Applicable to certain artists, yes. Some refuse to stick with the same style for this exact purpose, but moving on...

True, and in a way the new system brought this stagnation, since the under judgment sections are now filtered out from the main, more popular, content. When the portal was the main view each submission had an equal chance. It wasn't just a call for favorites, every user could get instant recognition with a good title; good thumbnail; most of all: good work. The new system makes it easy for people to see the content they want to see and filter out the rest, but at the same time they're missing a lot of potentially great content; as a result new users have trouble getting acclaimed. The Follow Friday is a good way of getting new users showcased though, and the manually selected Frontpage items... monthly choices and p_bot posts however seem to lean more in the favor of the popular artist. But then again they're usually popular artists for a reason: they make good stuff...

This is the part where I wonder what tools of exposure you speak of? True, only famous users can start trends.

The monetary reason to participate in the judging process has always been there btw, it just wasn't known to most users earlier on. Every month a voter has been selected at random to get the cash prize for quite a few years now.


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

(Part 3 damn straight this can go for long)

We face with a variety of problems, so in this part 3 having talked i think enough about how new users will affect the artist approaches and how, these new direct influx of money can change the direction of their production, i will in this 3rd installment concentrate on the problem of public flow.

We have 2 kind of public flow, the one that is attracted to the page, a public searching for an artist or things, which stays here, new users that arrive, and the things that make them come here, this category lets call it "A".

To the "A" category belong those artist that are already quite famous, and can attract public by themselves.

Then we have "B" which is redistribution (Holy shit yes, this is a socialist model, i know damn Max Weber, but bear with me a little i swear i just realized about now), this category is all the process that the page (and all other pages really) have to fulfill and is to show these users, some new content, show them new artist and promote them.

To this "B" we have small growing artist, and the odd ones that add the variety to the page.

So here, so far so normal, we have to attract new users, and then we once they are here we show them new things, this is also at the same time, tied to the promise that an artist not only can show his work here but that the page has the means to help him/her to grow a fan base, with even promise that in a future they will make a living out of it (ad-revenue, donations, the shop).

You may say, "so what? NG already does all this, in fact every single page that showcases artist does this, that is the standard model, but compared to YT or the art portal with DA, NG moves a smaller scale" yes, but while everyone does this, they do it wrongly with the one ecception being? that's right NG, and even NG has times when it fails and repeats the mistakes of YT and DA, sure this is a rare event, but happens, and it can increase the more a page grows, but what exactly is this mistake i am talking about here?

(Hold it there is part 4)

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Damn right you have the right to write!

True, category A would be a spotlight for popular artists, since they're known; even if the users don't know about them, since they appear first on search results (submission order based on popularity and all that), but it'd also be a way of finding obscure submissions within a certain niche, the key being the keywords (tags) and titles. The site could use a better search engine to lure in new users, but that's a different topic...

Max Weber huh. So category B is the 'Related Submissions' box? Social media sharing? the NG FB page? Wait... maybe you're saying category A are the famous artists and category B the unknown? I'm confused here. Maybe part four will clear this up...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

(Part 2 because i feel like i need to elaborate more)
So we have this system when you can support your favorite(s) artist(s), and that is great, i am fine with it, i like it, it works, and it does all the good things you said.

But! it also has some ugly consequences, and is as you just said that only some users will get recognized while others will find it harder to rise, even more if they decide to do something which is outside the normal parameters of the majority when it comes to tastes.

My proposal to avoid this, is to make the artists which are getting already a reasonably big amount of donations to be unable to participate along the other guys, like leagues, in which they could be ranked, so at one point the page itself wouldn't need to promote them, i am thinking of something similar to when we choose the top submissions of the month, and we can read a disclaimer that says something like: "Don't nominate porn, that content can defend itself without our endorsement" so with this it would be something similar. Artists that are already quite famous shouldn't be competing against the rest, since they can attract public by themselves, what we could have for them is a weekly top 5 or top 10 when the "pros" get to show their submissions.

sure that doesn't changes the fact that they would want to go "commercial", and you will say, no that will never happen here, we have better taste and we are critic, we will avoid such content that is clearly made just for the money. Well i am not that sure about that, for one, and in second place, this system is such a nice idea, that i can see it allowing NG to grow, and that means more users, new users, that are not acclimated to the old NG, and will be voicing their wants, and their don't wants, and while is an optional thing for the fans to donate or not, since in the end the artist is living out of this they will have to search ways to encourage donations toward themselves, and i hope you can see where i am going with this, but the majority of people will ban things like that game by Pigpen, and will be glad with Tom doing censorship, not because it was a good PR move, but for entirely stupid reasons, in short, my fear is NG turning into a YT or DA for flash and animations, if we don't take some countermeasures from point 1.

Is everything by everyone, but if the userbase changes, we will be saving a different of NG

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

So far so good. :)

Not that I can see how this particular system has any ugly consequences, but onto the proposition...

So you mean there would be a max amount of revenue for each alloted favorite user, taking all fan-based contributions into consideration? That sounds like a reasonable idea, but then again some users are making a living off of their animating, while others are just here for the fun. Those who spend all week pumping out animations would be, even if they are earning unreasonable sums compared to others, also spending much more effort to make up for these contributions. In what case would it be fair to set a roof on contributions just to split the revenue equally, without taking into consideration how the contributions would be used by said authors? It sounds a bit complex to control... and not necessarily good, unless the system is obviously being abused with shovelware and such content... but the mods already do a good job keeping that at bay.

Well I don't have anything against content made specifically for the money, as long as the content is good. I wouldn't mind paying for good content, at least not just contributing a small share of a fixed sum of money. A bigger budget should allow amateur artists to grow; professional artists to keep going. In other words, it'd be great for the community.

Ah, yeah, artists would definitely ask for donations... just like they've now started to ask people to follow them (I don't remember that happening back when there were only 'favorites'... seems like a consequence of the new generation), and some artists often ask for donations already. In a way, it could encourage more abuse, but on the other side it'd promote an equal system, where everyone can get a piece of the pie even if they don't ask for it. This monthly voting thing sounds like you're thinking artists should be showcased based on their contributions after all, though? :/


DoomroarDoomroar

11/23/13

After 16 you stop getting nice things and they either give you clothes, or money... well money is cool, but yeah is not the same.

Haha, oh man i see a misunderstanding here, i know that it doesn't has to be obligatory, of course not, but what i say is that those who support are gaining an certain level of authority, and power to sway the content into their tastes, this only affects the other fans after the artist finds itself in that position of appealing to its public, as you just said most of them already do that, now increase this attitude by 4, and we get that none of them will dare to risk and do something new, they will play it safe, and since it becomes a competence for supporters which has a different resource than ad-revenue less people will try and adventure, you may say innovation will give them an advantage in this competence, but that is not the case, i already put the DA example, and the masses go for what they already know and like, and fear plus plainly reject any change or new presentation.

I will said that you are right but, this phenomenon already happens here, indeed we even have this thing called king of the portal, so a system that patronize their artist will only increase this, and is great, but what i am saying is that we need a counter so the ones who are not as popular or are just starting will also get a chance, hell that is already rightnow a problem, but is not as big because we don't get 5 popular creators uploading the very same day, but do you remember those comercials for chips that were getting 2 daily frontpages in an entire month? well i do and that is a perfect example of being eternally frontpaged.

I will explain once the hive mentally establishes itself the content that is unable to adapt will be overshadowed and end censored, not deleted but hidden from public view, and that already happen in places like DA.

that's different you distribute your support from a pool/walllet to all your favorites? it seems to avoid the problem of an user getting overly active into dependence, working it out for the money, but is way less effective as a real solution, since in a year an average user will have lots of favorites it will be too small a contribution. Is not that i don't like the idea, is just that i know where it leads because i have seen it already, so what i want in such a system is a countermeasure to avoid such thing.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Sounds like your missing out on a sibling sister who loves to give interesting stuff. :P Last Christmas I remember getting a Panda in some form of nano-Lego (popular in Japan right now), this sort of maze in metal with two sides you had to complete at the same time, a stressball with some kind of aromatherapy essence... well to sum it up: we each gave about 30-40 presents a piece, equally, to all five family members (nothing valuable though, just interesting things; edibles), though my parents aren't so optimistic...

Ah, I get your point now. Potential solution: not let authors know who is supporting them. I don't think artists would just play it safe though and keep submitting the same thing over and over. Maybe things work differently here at NG, but there are artists here who have gained their fanbase by being random; not caring what people thing (like Catoblepas and yurgenburgen). They know this, and I don't think they'd start doing things differently if they were supported. Quite the opposite, they enjoy their freedom, and they'd get the needed budget or time to make even more great stuff! Or use the money elsewhere and not let it affect them. Though as I said this wouldn't necessarily have to apply to only content creators. You can follow anyone on here. Some users barely go outside the forums, but the system could work the same there as well.

Chips commercials?? I must've missed those completely. Any links? Well you could say it's a problem that popular artists just get even more popular, while unknown ones have a hard time attaining any status, but I don't think this would make a difference for this, and especially not make it worse. Am I missing something? Does DA have a contribution system like this? Sounds like the problem would be the same if NG just receives a surge of popularity, authors get more ad-revenue and more people start submitting. That's one of the dangers with big sites: less personality. But since the frontpage would still be based on manual selection (apart from P-Bot posts)... how could this go wrong?

Well yeah, that's it... did I just type in all the above for no reason? :L Well I'm not saying it'd give everyone unlimited funds, but it'd be a way to contribute, no matter how little (everyone after the size of their own wallet). And artists get an equal share too. That's how Flattr works so maybe Patreon is a bit different after all... as for how it wouldn't be much, that's true, but ad-revenue isn't much either. So far I've earned less than $0,02 this month... and in all my time here I still don't have enough to request a payout. Granted there was no ad-revenue given to users when I was most active and had tons of submissions, but the point is ad-revue probably doesn't amount to livable amounts even for the more popular users.


DoomroarDoomroar

11/22/13

Male/Female filter? you want the LGBT community complaining for sexism? i can already see the post...

Yeah they get your data as long as you use the service.

Ah well that is mostly because i am kinda an hermit, so yeah a bunch of people out of nowhere, skipping over my B-day, year after year, talking about some religious event as an excuse to do dem parties and gifts... gifts that means i have missed 50% of my gifts, and once you hit 16 gifts are the most boring stuff ever, you know what? screw December.

Go on man, enjoy those banks for me.

You mean like Patreon.com http://lazymuffin.newgrounds.com/news/post/874578#comments
It could work, but... isn't that a little de-powering to the artist? let me explain, before we were just fans, we followed, watched, liked, spread the word, if the guy made some merchandise we bitched about it, then we found out "damn this is some really cool ass shirt" so we buy the stuff, that's how it is for now.

On this new system, we are more integrated, and like with stocks on a company, we have a say, a greater influence beyond an opinion regarding the content, is like a kickstarter, but now the artist has to be more aware of pleasing the public, it doesn't has that much freedom, and that is quite ironic since we are talking about censorship.

But granted, it sounds promising, sure, i will say it now though, if such a system ever works, we should put restrictions, so new artist could get a chance to be featured or spotlighted, that way the big names wouldn't be there forever front-paged, pleasing their own audiences, and thus clogging the stream of new and different content, leading us to stagnation, like what happens on Deviant Art, the place is death, because everyone is an ass-licker, and they are doing the same thing, following trends, it can NOT grow (artistically and ethically), the users can't complain (psychologically), if someone ever does, a wave of delusion and escapism activates to avoid reality, but hell isn't the place popular? and aren't those "artist" good at getting donations? yes they are, and that is my point, if we made such a system we need to avoid falling into such a disgusting state.

Newgrounds as a country, with a democracy? no, we are more of a republic, with a really nice monarch. I like the comparison, i wonder how much of that is really true and relevant, i will wait for Zachary's answer.

11/23/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Haha, someone always gonna hate :D

Yeah.

Once you hit 16? I still haven't hit the point when I'm not interested in gifts. I thought it was around 60, considering my parents aren't too hyped up about their birthdays or Christmas any longer... still the house is getting a bit crammed though, that's kinda making me feel like I should cut down on collecting...

I shall honor your request! :)

Patreon, yeah, didn't read through everything on their site but that's pretty much it... though you should know flattr.com/ is the original, all the new ones are just copying the idea. Well I don't mean it'd be an obligatory system, you could still be just a fan, and support artists you like in other ways if you like/don't have the finances/don't want to get involved (and I guess most users wouldn't), but for those that do I don't see how this'd be a bad option. It's not like it'd replace all other momentary income forms or change the artistic freedom, they can still do whatever they like. Already many think about pleasing their audience more than doing what they really want so they get more followers; get more recognition; get more hits on their videos and thus more ad-revenue.

It'd be great with a such system integrated with the site since there would be no extra fees involved in payment processing too. Huh? Eternally frontpaged? Maybe you're misinterpreting my idea here, I don't mean artists who receive contributions would get more showcasing space than anyone else. Many already accept donations through external services, this way everyone on the site could take part of such features, and an automatic split between all favorites would let popular users get something for their effort regardless of what they do, whether it be posting at the forums, writing a ton of reviews or making great stuff. It's not like users with the most fans would get a much much bigger amount of contributions, since there's a large amount of users that drop out from the active user base overtime, that's more of a counter than an actual profit denominator.

Don't really get how this would have to do with censorship? :/

I was thinking of a very unobtrusive option in the control panel saying something like 'Contribute to your favorites', you're taken to a page explaining any transfered sum will be equally split amongst your favorites; you can choose amount to use/month from your transfered cash. If the amount is less than specified, it'll still be split equally, and that's it, no notifications or reminders... nothing happens if you don't want to add more money (and if you never do, there's no shame).

Well yeah, DA is a great example of a site grown so large only a set few users get any real recognition, same thing with YT. I don't mean the system would work any differently here than it's always done, this'd just be an additional feature for optional donation.

True, considering there's no election a republic is more like it!


ZacharyZachary

11/22/13

Do you honestly believe that the backlash would have been lesser if he left the game up? To even COMPARE it to removing it is silly. The reason it was left out of most news sites is because Tom decided to remove it. Otherwise they would be on it like a fat kid on cake.

They didn't "create their own" because there is nothing to debate. Someone uploaded it to the site, and the site owners removed it. Even if it is told to the public that way, there is no way Newgrounds can be held at fault.

You are just creating something out of nothing honestly.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

On NG, yes. On the rest of the net it'd of course have been mayhem, but as to how much I guess we'll never know. It might have been rough, but if NG had pulled through it would have been an NG that stood by it's principles and persevered, a community united by the integrity of each individual artist. It'd have been an impressive feat; made me much prouder to be a member here.

If Tom hadn't voiced his decision (and opened to debate - he does ask for user opinions), I believe there wouldn't have been a shitstorm here on NG, at least not such a big one. Most people who crawled out of the woodwork to post would probably not have been aware of the situation (I wasn't). But now that they were made aware, of course there is something to debate. Sure he owns this site, but it's like a country - the people who live here want to have a voice in how their society is governed. Google steers their continent without involving the people, but here is different; it's a true democracy, with laws and officials to regulate them like anywhere else; a free country like this would obviously form a bunch of passionate patriots along the way, intent on preserving their rights to enjoy a luxury of freedom that they've become used to.

Posting that Censorship topic was probably a great maneuver in getting positive media attention though, and reviving a fraction of inactive users at the same time. He's making it clear not to just the users what's going on, but it's also like a call to sympathy for the media, to let them know what he's done and prevent them from attacking the site; let them understand what's going on without making an official statement. I really wonder how much of what he posts is posted with an intended effect in mind and how much is without motive... either way though I'm glad the posts posted, glad the opportunity to influence was given, even if it had little or no effect...

Thin line between something and nothing, it's all opinion.


DoomroarDoomroar

11/21/13

Wait i just actually watched and 3 of those links are for petitions, what nonsense like if that would actually do something, but that also means that the game is getting people more touched than they should, could it be, maybe, that we Newgrounders are just a bunch of desensitized bastards and the game is really a horrible spawn of the devil? the answer is no, people are just being played by the media like always,and as always is working wonders, and actually none of those mentioned the 3rd mode of the game, some even dare to say that the game has no music, is incredible.

Plus Newgrounds is being mentioned in some of those, some comments even plainly blame us the users for rating the game fairly.

So YTubers want to come here and boycot? hahahaha.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Sounds like potential traffic increase.


KatMaestroKatMaestro

11/21/13

@Zachary

Not the comment sections. They were calling boycott those sites who hosted the game. I saw that on some Youbube's news channel the people were also calling for boycotting NG.

Tom avoided the storm, but he still stuck with some landspouts.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Any site with a boycott called for might get some extra attention, seems like it only did good things for Maddox when 'angry moms' started boycotting him...


DoomroarDoomroar

11/21/13

Deleted post!!? Oh no! haha joking i read Zachary's response.

Man why do you want people to see a bunch of dicks on the Adult session? haha.

Well this is part of the reality of Tumblr http://your-average-serial-killer.tumblr.com/post/67610713481/take-action-post-to-your-facebook-twitter
Well that a thing is disturbing doesn't makes it illegal, but it gets banned just the same, and i am not necessarily talking about porn, which works just as you said, but sure there is no such a thing as a perma-ban on Tumblr, since it can enter the stream by other users, etc.

No they skip it and lump it with Christmas so i only get one of those... Well i actually hate December with passion, and not necessarily for me being victimized by the festivities, but the whole holy day ambiance is not my thing.

Getting a bank account is quite easy, but all the services suck and are quite abusive, there’s nothing like the wonderful free stuff you just described, using and just possessing a card actually cost you money, the only way to get a decent service in the lines of what you just said is by invitation, and that arrives at random or once you already enter a bank and another one wants you for themselves, so to enter a bank is easy, to be with them is a pain, and to leave leads to your previous point, banks are scum over here, they even charge you if you call for info, i even wonder if they charge you if you log in into your web account to check your credit, they probably do.

Well we can attract a public using bad media coverage, but i can see that backfiring rapidly, from a purely business stand point, that would be just suicidal, of course that view point doesn't respects any code or ethic, it only search monetary profit. So in this regard Tom did the best thing.

I agree, i wouldn't be all that comfortable to know that an artist i don't really know is using resources that could go to sustaining the page, even if the page is in a way sustained by the users which that artist is attracting, so in the end is fine... kinda selfish if i put it like that, because I still don’t like the idea XD.

Well i guess that Tom is searching, and that is why he was talking about the 2 NG, so he could get some new ad companies for the page, by making the place friendlier to a new public.

Wow look at all those links, the media really is exaggerating this, yellow journalist at its finest.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

:)

I never said that! :O But the choice is of course free... maybe some male/female filter hmm...

Wonder if they have the legal right to log personal data of international users... but I guess that comes with using an international service.. interesting post. K, if you say so, I really don't know more than I've read, and there's no guarantee all the offensive content I've stumbled across is there any longer.

Well that's a shame.

There's ambiance on Christmas? It's one of the most hectic holidays ever! :P So much stress... I could use less of that, but I like the lights, the snow... most of all: the presents! :D Both giving and taking, equal fun. Sure it's all about commercialism now, but if you don't think about the profit everyone's making off it it feels like a very accomplishing and benevolent occasion.

It really is the country of commercialism... makes me think maybe I should sign up for some extra bank accounts while they still have free services here. :P

Feels like the sucidality of the event is highly exaggerated... but I wouldn't know. If it isn't, good call indeed!

That donation topic brings up another idea btw, what if users could fund the site; have their money channeled first and foremost to operational costs, and in second hand also portioned between their favorite users? This could be completely separate too, even with an ad-financed site, users could have the option to support all their favorite artists through a single donation or subscription, like Flattr but integrated within the site. It could be added to the ad-revenue each artist receives, maybe with a small list of users who have contributed to them visible (only to them) at the bottom/month.

Yeah, maybe, I guess I shouldn't underestimate staff efforts so much.


S3CS3C

11/21/13

not from parts of their userbase zachary.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Obligatory response.


ZacharyZachary

11/21/13

That doesn't really go with what you said @Elitistinen.

" Look like the Fulps couldn't avoid much of the shitstorm either ways"

I would say they avoided practically all of it.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

They avoided the big one; then created their own...


S3CS3C

11/21/13

I think derelix brought up some great points in that thread too, but someone called him a troll, and behold the floodgate opens, and like 90% of controversial threads the discussion devolves. Regardless of who initiated the flaming, you would hope the mod(s) would be the better man here, and pragmatically discuss the issue or ignore him if they so vehemently disagree....Insults and accusations NEVER help resolve an issue.

I'm always pleased at how honest and level-headed Tom is in all his responses. And he made it clear that the reason he took it down was not for financial reasons; the whole bit about "being dropped from every advertising agency in existence" was just stated as an aside. Considering how that was in 2007 he was referring to (I think), if was such a big deal the censorship would have become much tighter long ago.

11/22/13 Cyberdevil responds:

Twas sickdeathfriend... throwing away a few years of built-up admiration in a few seemingly very thoughtless comments. Later Derelex confuses sickdeathfriend with Zachary and accuses him of accusing him of being a troll, what a mess...

Yeah, it's cool he keeps his cool! I'm wondering how many of the unresponded comments he's read through though, so many important arguments about the downsides of censorship that might potentially pass under the radar... you'd think so, but maybe they've been (as I often do with things I don't want to take care of) just ignoring the problem; not actively looking for future solutions. If it's all a personal choice I'm all the more against it, I empathize with the parents but I care more for this site and what it stands for. :/


WhirlguyWhirlguy

11/21/13

This censorship post has noticeably gotten more reactions than a regular newspost would get. From the looks of that I would say the userbase thinks there's a lot at stake here. It's interesting to see how much it stirred up the community. I should probably go and read all of it regardless. As for that documentary, the guys who made "Indie Game: The Movie" come to mind. I'm pretty sure a documentary could happen if Edmund McMillen were to contact them.

11/22/13 (Updated 11/22/13) Cyberdevil responds:

Definitely, even though it didn't mention the game title.... I wonder how many hits it'd have received if it did! Yeah, if nothing else, NG's reputation is on the line, for good or bad... that is a rather big thing. Bluebaby? That'd be awesome!