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Cyberdevil
Bamboo Shoots!

Age 34, Male

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Doomroar

Not even when the music stops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwb_0QVCWw

Wonder which countries you may be talking about.

Indeed by entities i mean corporations, because if an individual can own land, then a corporate can too do the same, but we know how that usually ends.

I don't know i don't really see communism working alongside with patriotism because it requires the notion of a nation, and nations implies a separation which goes against the eventual death of class division, then creating segregation, between foreign and local, translating one problem to another instead of fixing it. Maybe non discriminatory patriotism could work, but how would that even look like? pride is after all a sentiment that excludes that which doesn't makes part of that sentiment.

It would be more like mixing peanut and butter, to get peanut-butter, and then we could even add some jelly!

But there is also micro-evolution!

However not wanting to mix cultures sounds quite racist, like those new groups that go around saying that multiculturalism equals to white genocide... just the sole statement is all levels of wrong, starting for the exaggeration of calling it genocide, and even more since in multiculturalism you can perfectly conserve your cultural heredity, it is up to you to see what parts to keep or not, instead of just following it for a means of tradition.

XD, oh man that would be interesting to see, but i am no economist and i am not really that advanced into sociology, so i cant say if that would work or not (but it sounds unlikely), just from the very way in which markets work, and how these start mixing with culture.

They probably felt in love and moved to Turkey, that could happen... positive multiculturalism right there :P

Well now you know, there is your problem, a religion XD. (joking, but really...)
But regardless of religion, or politics regarding people as good Christians instead of people, a thing that can be seen in most speeches by politicians, i think that different religions are not really a problem for multiculturalism, because it is known from point A that there are differences, and the whole point is to coexist with those differences, even taking the best of them and integrating them into one another, the problem may come when stubbornest enters into play, when some believe themselves to be more right than others.

Cyberdevil

You say what you say http://youtu.be/_F_SXq0zSDY

Well actually I just know the one, the Sweden, but I assume other countries have similar situations.

Yepp, it ends... badly.

I think I was just comparing communism to patriotism, not suggesting they be combined... but on that topic: I do believe people would need to be patriotic for communism to work. Believing in their country could be synonymous to believing in equality, if they don't believe in that, how could the communism even get started? Non-discriminatory patriotism would be patriotism though. Discrimination and patriotism may often go hand in hand, but they're different concepts. You don't need to look down on one thing to love something else... though no doubt a lot of people do, there's the problem. :/

But maybe some people are allergic to peanuts! And others have diabetes!

That's another big problem, as soon as someone has a potentially negative view on immigration, multiculturalism etc they call them a racist. It's a word people throw around so much that the original definition's almost been lost along the way, and then people don't dare speak up because they'll be labeled a supremacist or nationalist (which is really a different thing) or something else disparaging, and as a consequence they're often looked down upon. That's racism right there, discrimination excused as... well I don't know what to call it, it's all opinion but so many people take it a few miles further than that. Is it so hard to see that there are both positive and negative sides to multiculturalism? Maybe it is the inevitable way of the future world but people should be free to voice their opinions even on such matters, as they will have a huge impact on their lives and those of generations to come.

Markets... the consumption craze... that's another huge defect of today. :) But the global net of suppliers seems to work well, theres import and export all over the globe. Countries who don't have natural resources (like Japan) can find a niche within technology, etc. Not sure how that ties to multiculturalism... makes it easy to import foods that cannot be grown in the home zone of course, but that doesn't mean you can't still buy local produce.

Haha, yeah maybe, if they love the country it's all good. :)

Instead of people? Man all people are tied do some fundemental guidelines, the constitution's Christianity-based too, I doubt there's a government in the world that doesn't have religion tied to their rulebook, though they've evolved separately in latter years. Oh, in their speeches... I don't think I've ever heard a religious reference in a political speech here.. the 'God Bless America' thing reminds me that there are other countries with probably much stronger ties to religion than us, though we tie in different ways. The problem might be that we don't consider ourselves religious, yet some parts of religion is embedded in our culture, and when religious groups move in with a will to change that culture we feel threatened, though we don't directly know why, or understand the significance of culture as something that ties people together. Well you know what I think. I'm fascinated by different beliefs and traditions and everything, but I don't want ours to change. Just like I don't want a global currency, or a flag that unites an entire continent (or an entity like the EU that attempts to govern a group of countries, and spend ridiculous sums of money pushing through crazy laws like how cucumbers that are bent a certain way aren't to be sold, or strawberries need to be a certain size, or we need to ban surströmming because it smells bad). I'm sure multiculturalism works to a certain extent, or has the potential to work, but I see a much larger potential for things go wrong, for wars to break out, for society to get divided into fractions, for racism and discrimination to brew particularly because our differences aren't cared for, people lose confidence, sense of purpose, sense of patriotism, stop caring for country; stop caring for their fellow humans...

Doomroar

'Till you collapse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_YDIyOWh-U

You are dependent or a colony of who exactly?

Haha i can see that working, i really do, but seems like a more rare thing that even the notion of a working and real communist system in our current times.

Then sugar low jam, and we can mix some other nuts, multiculturalism gives us options not just one kind :D

Is true we need to bring the word "Fascist" back into the lingo of the everyday! XD.
Well that is not really what i would call racist, because racism is a whole different kind of discrimination so the word doesn't even applies, I would call it censorship and prejudice to avoid and deny the opinion in a problem, but is not a discrimination based on race.
As for the bad sides of multiculturalism i can see them as fear of not wanting something that we are accustomed to, then go and change, possibly into something we dislike, but is that something we dislike something bad or good? and it is bad or good for who and which party? those things are also evaluated into multiculturalism when it is done right it is not just trowing 2 views into chaos and see what comes out of it, however you may say that i may be idolizing multiculturalism and thus i have become unable to see the downsides in this novelty that is happening in our times, in that case you are totally right there, thus is kinda your duty to point out those things i am missing... (since i cant see them).
The thing is that there is a real problem with immigration and crime, however that is not really a problem of culture or race, thus to link it with culture and race can be seem as racist, thus the word appears, is a problem of approach really (unless the person really thing that crime is a property of that culture in that case it is indeed racism).

Because market and culture go hand in hand, they do it in such a close way, that in the beginning economics, sociology and politic sciences were one and the same discipline.

Cyberdevil

Till you say Goodbye Hollywood! http://youtu.be/Tr00nzl6-3w

We're dependent on a large portion of the world for oil, military aid, financial aid, food, tourism and labor. The government somehow decided it'd be best to sell out all government-owned companies (especially the ones making a profit - ones that could and have been used for the wealth of the people) and open for competition, resulting in generally worse service and reliability on foreign actors just to have a functioning society. Some facets that used to be paid for by the state cost even more now, since the corporations don't make enough profit and need financial aid to keep running, so salary is retailed in by the state anyway. You could say the individual could earn more off of this system, but it's really a tiny portion of the populace that wallows in riches; since taxes are so high (30% is normal; higher the more you earn...) the people who do earn a lot usually move abroad. We have an abundance of natural resources, but instead of using that to our advantage the government wants to bring in more people, creating more opportunities for work, letting foreign actors prospect for minerals like uranium, letting other countries exploit our wilderness. Some of these projects get grants from the state since initial investment is costly, and some never make a profit anyway. The government is actively letting the world abuse our hospitality and breadth of resource, with little or no gain, when we could be independent and all live somewhat luxuriously off of the earth. And caring for the country is looked upon like racism, it's crazy.

Yeah, a rarity we'll probably never see! But it could be cool.

But if these edible items are all metaphors for people, then there are always going to be peanuts too, and sugar. Excluding those two... now that would just be racist. ;)

Ah, fascist. Haven't heard that word in a long time! :D Yeah I know, it's not, the word is used for so much it doesn't actually apply to. It's used as an excuse to avoid discussion, it's used for blame; abused for personal gain. It's become an accessory for certain people to get their way and easily discriminate others, nationals and immigrants alike, they're using the word like a weapon, forgetting what it really means and how much our world has evolved since the time when racism was something people oftentimes didn't even see as wrong (of course it's wrong, just saying we've come so long since then)!

Well maybe you need to experience some of the downsides to understand them. I don't know how I could elaborate upon why I feel the way I do in ways I haven't already... hope the message gets through though! I definitely understand it's not all bad, but it can so easily turn bad. I agree the crime isn't directly linked to culture, but I do believe it's linked to immigration. People don't always choose their destinations when they move; they aren't always happy with where they end up. That general distrust or dislike easily manifests in a want for vengeance: on the country, on the 'natives'. And then there are those large criminal organizations that use immigration to spread or move onto new ground. There's not nearly as much control as to the background of each individual - at least not here, and I think we talked about the problems of integration earlier.

In regard to multiculturalism? I agree, but we can have import without having immigration though.

Doomroar

The thing is that in principle no constitution should be tied to a religion, that is the whole point of separating from the church, but yeah that was a really half-assed development in the history of humanity.

I see your worries, but that happens when multiculturalism "happens" without any real process behind it, is juts mixing things and see what happens, there's no study, investigation, or forethought behind it, so evidently the whole thing falls apart and segregation occurs, and if segregation occurs then we can't really talk of multiculturalism, the same goes to things that are imposed upon others.

That sounds more like cultural diversity happening in the same geographical zone, instead of multiculturalism, and then we take this diversity and forcefully morph it into a mix of whatever may come out, then we take that and impose it onto the rest.

Cyberdevil

We still need some form of guidelines though. The problem with casting religion aside is that it easily takes a turn for profit; corruption. Religion is something holy; as the basis for all modern law it's something we take so much for granted we almost consider some of these moral beliefs to be inherited rather than taught.

Yeah, and it's happening! If there was a viable process to it I probably wouldn't have so much against it. Bad experiences feed my opinions.

Not the same thing? It does sound a lot like that.

Doomroar

'Till you end Underground! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fqenBFyQ2U

When i said dependent i was talking in a political sense not an economical one.

Oh man you have to excuse me here, but if you only saw the big ass grin i have on my face while reading your comment, don't get me wrong, this grin is because you just described the horrors of neo liberalism, and i agree so much with you there, if only i could print that comment of yours and spread it around the world, paste it in the walls of universities, put it on the streets, broadcast it by radio, TV and the web, spread the word, what you are suffering is from the same thing the rest of the world suffers from, the weird thing here is that privatization and such horrors brought by free trade are usually felt more strongly by third world countries who get ravaged by international companies, the same happens, except for a big difference, the taxes, taxes are usually low even for the rich so they stay there to rake up more profits, however the capital stays out of circulation and keeps accumulating within these rich individuals, there is no "invisible hand" that will fix this chaos, capital will keep accumulating and will not be redistributed, so to read about this phenomenon happening in such a way in a place like Sweden just shows that such a system is condemned to be a piece of shit even in advanced countries, lets see now, does it work in other places that are considered "great powers", UK, Germany, France, China, USA, Japan, Russia, does this works there? no, most of them have their public companies well protected by their governments like it should, and Obama recently pushed as hard as he could a health care reform that boost public health care, we can see that it is important for the government to have a hold in these things, and yet people selfishly try to fight against, but as you just wrote a private company can do that job and in the meantime fuck everyone else in the sidelines, then move away and keep growing, multinationals are like most companies, all about money, but these guys do it hardcore and efficiently, stomping whoever they need to, i really have no idea why common people would try to defend them, the only ones who benefit from those are other multinationals, stock holders and the rich, the influential rich.

Cyberdevil

At 3 AM! http://youtu.be/X36LK3SUWl8

Ah, well politically we're incredibly dependent on the EU. We have no choice (well we could leave the EU; but apparently some people *cough*politicians*cough* don't want to do that) but to enforce all the laws they cast upon us, even when they aren't to our benefit. For example, we had great control over what pesticides, chemicals etc were allowed... until the EU came along. In an effort to have a standard applicable to the entire continent a lot of items that were previously banned are now allowed, since other countries don't want to disallow them: like ASO dyes in candy. I ate some of that once without knowing and had a pretty horrible allergic reaction, whole body covered in blister-like itches for a few days. So yeah, politically we are, by political choice, all but independent.

So... it has another name! Yeah it's depressing seeing how we keep sinking; going through the mistakes other countries have gone through already. They're learning (I'm thinking of that healthcare reform here) while we're just casting all that attained wisdom aside in favor of something we should know is not to our benefit... on the topic of multinational companies btw, Monsanto is the best example I can think... by best I mean the worst. They're taking over the world with GMO crops, forcing farmers to rely on their product, in a large scale monopolizing modern agriculture, and what's worse is they don't believe in their own project. In their own cafeteria any GMO food is banned. It's baffling how they can keep spreading their seeds even though they are apparently well-aware of the downsides of it.

Doomroar

Ah but we don't need to exclude them, we can still have them, is just that now we have different kinds, instead of pushing them away we change them, so you don't have to be stuck with something that would otherwise kill you.
Also these are metaphors for cultures not people :P lets say that sugar is patriarchalism, and diabetes is being a woman, we just mix that culture with a non patriarchal one that way you can have the best of that jam sandwich instead of just bread.
Yeah the Jam would not taste the same, but it is a change for the best, it is more healthy now (it wouldn't kill you, and it can be eaten by more people), and it also has bread now, so it will fill your stomach more easily!
It may sound weird but in this version of cooking, mixing the ingredients, changes them, so a peanut becomes a different nut, and that Jam loses its sugar. But they are still a Nut and Jam :D (what is with me using these emotes lately, am i being influenced by you Mr Cyberdevil!?)

Man what you presents me has so much things to be analysed, which i have confess i have no data on, for example the notion that immigrants travel to other countries without any planing involved, is this really true? do they simply move and then end there, and now try to survive doing whatever? sounds hard to believe.

Cyberdevil (Updated )

Integration! I'm down with that! :)

Haha man these metaphors are getting out of hand... lmao, I don't know what to say to that. If cultures are merged and modified so that they may co-exist I suppose there is no problem, but personally I wouldn't want to change my own culture! You saying I use a lot of emotes? :P Hmm. :/ I need to control this habit! :O

Oh, no of course they plan, but I mean their options are limited, there's a certain amount of places they can migrate to, or know of; it's not always what they expect or want. When we lived abroad we had some neighbors in third-world countries that wanted to move to Sweden, they asked us to arrange the trip, when we (I mean my parents btw, I wasn't too old back then) asked what they'd do in Sweden they were surprised: it was common knowledge you didn't need to work and you'd get financial aid anyway. And they do, at the cost of taxpayers with incredibly high taxes... but giving immigrants all they need isn't positive integration, it doesn't make them feel a sense of purpose or fit in, it creates feelings of distrust and bitterness though you'd think the natural reaction would be thankfulness. Maybe cause they expect more? I don't know, I have no studies to reference but I live here so... interaction gives some insight. Yeah, a lot move and end up here, a lot are funneled in through Finland for example, who are very strict about immigration and barely take in any themselves. And as for surviving, most of them have an easy time... least economically. I know I mentioned earlier that all immigrants get financial aid, free phonecalls abroad, free health and dentist care, free furniture, potential travel expenses etc. And there is no requirement for any real integration, though I'm getting off topic here again...

Doomroar

Second the discontent of the immigrant when things don't unfold nicely once they "settle" in the new country, this discontent now manifests in a want for vengeance against the country, this is more radical and i think it can be more easily researched by interviewing immigrants, asking them if they would hold grudge against the country or would want revenge giants it if things doesn't work out, then asking them why, and why they think the country is really responsible for it, talking about this point i remembered this thing here http://youtu.be/LMKEkHT9aRg?t=15m3s this is a draw my life video of a guy that is really good at drawing, i found him because he does some really awesome Dota2 fan art, anyway at some point he ended in Sweden as an immigrant working for a restaurant as a dishwasher, while he was there his employee abused him (as a worker), and things just didn't work out (i also should ask myself if he was really abused or not, who knows, but i guess that it could have happened), now did he hated the country of Sweden for this? no, he did not, he did hated his employer, but is hate for the guy the same as hate and revenge against the country, about its people? no, however not everyone is like that, there must be people that could come to the not so rational conclusion that the one at fault is the country, what we need to know is how many people think this, and why.
So are the majority of immigrants who fail at making it as immigrants holding grudges against the country they arrive to, and the natives (not just one person but a whole community)? i also find it hard to believe, but i can't really say yes or not here.

Now the criminal organizations, these are multinational groups, and i agree 100% here, there is nothing really to discuss here, organized crime will do what it needs to stay afloat, just like any other company nowadays, thus enforcing immigration laws is a necessity.

Ah yeah the problem of integration, what did we leave that at? XD.

You want importation without immigration? ok, but i have no idea how that would work, regardless of being those goods or services.

Cyberdevil (Updated )

Well here's an example case: the first generation immigrates. They aren't happy, they don't get good jobs, they don't feel at home or a sense of purpose. The second generation is raised under a helm of brewing discontent; take out their discontent on society. Vengeance may be a strong word... maybe bitterness fits better. They are bitter, they don't fit in, the second generation doesn't know if they want to fit in. They're raised under an old culture; clashing with the new, taking out their bitterness on what they believe is the cause of their agony. As soon as people try to get involved with the pros and cons and whatnots of immigration though they get looked on as racist, it's a topic people are scared of discussion so... well I don't know of any such studies; don't know if there are.

Haha, that was an interesting experience... you speak the truth, can't put all all people under the same umbrella. But it is a problem. That's why we have riots, that's why they burn cars, it's a destruction aimed at sosciety rather than the individual.

Right.

I think we reached some common conclusion on how... integration is needed, but also clashes a bit with multiculturalism, and end of topic? :P

Hmm, example: Pokemon games are mighty popular here.

Doomroar

"Religion is something holy" dude let me make a tweak on that quote:
"Religion is something that is supposed to be seen as holy" now that sounds more like it, yeah that is why we have all these ethical models after the age of enlightenment that separate themselves from religion, because it was not working, and because (oh the irony), it was turning into profit; corruption.
Wait i got lost here, but... something that we inherit is something that is taught to us... unless you mean that we are born with some ideas already inside us... which i found even more weird.

The difference here is that multiculturalism doesn't imposes or forces you anything, it shows an alternative, the change is not pushed to happen, you can always walk await from it, remember the example of the school teaching Hawaiian history in Turkey? well there are 2 problems with that, such a curse is not something really for school level, but higher education, second instead of just Hawaii it should have other cultures involved on it, with that clarified, the thing is that you can always choose to not see that class, without any other consequences other than you not getting the information presented on that class, and that is actually how it is done, with education, is an actual long process that should not be rushed, the benefits that would be actually seen by the next generation, in the meantime most of the actual generation would just tolerate each other without really seeing any mix, is the actual next one and those that fully participate of the process the ones that start fully understanding each other.

But what if everyone or most of them say no, including the kids? then no change happens, there is no new vision or approach, the same concepts remain, even if these are backed by the imagination and not by facts.

Cyberdevil (Updated )

Right. That's what I meant. Good wording!

Well here's an example of what I mean: a lot of people believe that we can differentiate right from wrong without being taught what's wrong and what's right, that certain aspects of moral, like: you shall not kill (a human), is inherited to the point where it's hereditary rather than something we grow up and learn, either through society or through our family (also influenced by society). I believe all these principles have their roots in religious guidelines and aren't traits of human natural as some may think. I wouldn't mind other guidelines instead of religious, but as a base they work well don't they? They're like tradition, we follow them on instinct.

Well if all countries mix in all cultures, there actually isn't much you can do about it; you can't choose to walk away from it. Then multiculturalism is global and inescapable, and if it becomes a problem, it affects the entire country (or world) and not only those who have a problem with it.

Say no to...? Not sure which part of the previous convo this is linked to.

Doomroar

Making your 1st single https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8qXgRiE1M

Dependent by political choice, yeah the EU seems to have that side effect, among others, that is a good example, but you could say everyone inside the EU becomes dependent of each other, maybe one day it works, or the whole of the EU sinks together, quite risky and bold actually, it all depends on how that goes.

Yeah man, and politicians love to defend that shit, even if is clear by now that it doesn't really works, and of course companies like Monsanto couldn't be more happy to see such models to still be enforced, since it benefits their growth, then the people get caught in the trap of getting more jobs and a circulating capital that will never go to them, they get caught in the promise of entrepreneurship, that doesn't really defends the small entrepreneur, they get caught in a bunch of lies, the jobs that are made are temporal low wage jobs filled with risk, and the capital moves into the big echelons of the economy, while the entrepreneurs that come ahead are those that already had the resources to start competing, in short is a benefit for the 1%.

Haha, yeah that is what i am saying, but in the emotes and the culture part of it.
I understand if you don't want your culture to change, however it can't stay the same forever, otherwise it will stagnate, a way to avoid this is, among lot of other is multiculturalism, just saying.

That seems to be more a problem with the system than with immigration in itself, if they are giving things away for free then, man it is kinda normal to have that happening actually, instead of giving it all away just like that what they need is to make these new citizens to unfold the same responsibilities as the rest, pay taxes, work, study, etc. Contribute.

Cyberdevil

Almost famous! http://youtu.be/8K4N6aSdojQ

True, and some countries are more dependent on others, some have more control than others, some take more liberties and don't get penalized for it. It's not a very fair and balanced system.

Yeah, all that greed... and as for politicians, if they'd at least cut the paychecks in half maybe some people who cared about more than themselves the impact they'll have on history... or about the $$$ - might jump aboard and make a difference.

In the emotes?? True, it has to keep evolving, as do we all: our language, our bodies, our cultures... and yet there's something special about tradition, about things we've been doing for hundreds of years, about monumental buildings, ancient relics etc. I think the past's worth preserving when it's beneficial, and I don't think our current cultures a disadvantage... but multiculturalism might. I get what you're saying tho!

Word, that'd be the way!

Doomroar

What you could do with the second generation, is that since they are being now raised there, they could use multiculturalism to integrate them into Sweden that way you avoid the cultural clash, while it may not really change Sweden it can change the second generation into feeling a part of Sweden, it doesn't has to be always in a big scale, it can work with small communities, specially with children that are being raised there, and the sooner the better, that way you avoid the formation of groups that separate themselves from the rest of the community (the natives), of course for that you will need a different approach for each community of immigrants, and that requires to know the background of the immigrant, since a standard model wouldn't work on everyone.

In that case we would need to know the exact source of the discontent, and what are the demands and proposals, as well as how realistic and rational they are, when it gets to this point we find ourselves with a problem of education, so you will need to inform them, of course as you describes things it seems that not only this is not being done, but they also get a lot of privileges on top of that.

Integration is needed, what can help with this is multiculturalism, since is a tool towards integration, and this clashes with diversity in the long run. Why? because the more time passes the more the cultures merge (in that case can we still talk about multiple cultures? probably, with 2 cultures that are really similar, and yet different).

And how do those Pokemon games arrive there?

Cyberdevil

You mean teach them our culture? Or implement their cultures in smaller scale?

Yupp, education's key! But it's not working that well. To some extent, education is a cultural thing too...

But if the cultures aren't merged, we'll have clashing fractions within society, and if they do then it really will be a multicultural society. I just can't see the concept as necessarily positive. :/

By plane or boat, I presume?

Doomroar

Haha, but the problem is that they don't work, after all it is holding a fallacy as a fact.
Also that something is tradition doesn't makes it right, there are plenty of examples of that.
Thus the role of humanity today (among other things) is to separate itself from traditional ways of thinking, and start using reason, and we have been doing this since before the age of enlightenment, and we still have lots to do, i mean there is people out there still fighting against evolution!

Is not really a mix of everything into one, but getting the best of others to enhance your own view, thus changing your view, and using comparison to find ways out to your problems, having a global view, this is not really proper of multiculturalism, but the way in which some (lost of) studies on the different fields involving humans are done.

When i said "But what if everyone or most of them say no, including the kids?" i refer to the model of learning from this other culture(in the case of the immigrant)/cultures in the case of the natives, if they refuse then no change happens.

Cyberdevil (Updated )

Yeah, I agree fully, if something is broken it should be fixed; if something is flawed it should be improved. Yet I feel that nowadays people often try to fix what's not broken and improve what isn't flawed. The world's evolving all the time, but there's a thin line between evolution and regression. I mean, all change isn't good change. If someone tries to fix something without the necessary knowledge about it, they might end up breaking it. And as humans, we all have different views on what change is good change, what's evolution, what's right and wrong. Progress is a term heavily influenced by public/personal opinion.

Kinda like GMO huh. :) I think the watermelon with seeds tastes better than the new version though, just saying.

Ah, yeah, if they refuse: no change. True.

Doomroar

Teach your culture to the second generation, otherwise they remain the same as the 1st generation, of course it is required a certain degree of respect for what they already come with, other wise they won't be a 2nd generation but your average Sweden citizen.

Yeah education is part of culture, part of politics, part of economics, part of a bunch of things, that is why pedagogy and epistemology are so important and debated in academy.

That is why you merge them, well the processes is more long and complex than just merging but that is the idea, that why you avoid a clash, and get something more similar to a dilution.

And who drives those vehicles? who makes the deals? who talks to the companies and tells them to make a trust inversion and tell them that their product will sell, and for how much will it sell, and for how long?

Yeah that is why you have to study the subject, then come with a hypothesis and then check if the hypothesis holds as true, that is called being responsible. But what i wanted to say was, that the fact that something is working doesn't means that it can't work even better, optimization.

Yeah just like GMO, and GMO it can be done right, that broccoli we all love (i will assume that we all love broccoli) is a perfect example of modified organism (sure it was made with primitive/traditional means of breeding but is essentially the same a genetically modified organism), well you could say chihuahuas are in that category too... but i do find chihuahuas as the product of irresponsibility, so yeah...

Cyberdevil

Some really go a long way to preserve their heritage... I mean, the parents of the second generation go a long way to make sure they don't change, opening up private schools for certain groups etc... you speak the truth though, that'd be the right way to go about it.

True that too. Also just learned a new term in Epistemology...

Seems like we agree on how most of this stuff should work. :)

Companies; of their own interest? I mean, people don't immigrate along with the product, or immigrate so that the product can be spread (least not when it comes to this example on videogames). Of course people of different cultures communicate and collaborate, and I'm fine with that, it doesn't mean they all need to move to new locations to do so. I don't mind globalism as I do multiculturalism in a closed area.

I agree!

lol I have a love/hate relationship with broccoli, certain other members in the family almost like it too much. :P As for that example though, if it's done naturally there's much less risk involved. With GMO they have for example been injecting fish genes into plants... that we eat... I don't know about you but to me that just seems a little twisted; wrong. But as for the real thing that's wrong with GMO crops, it's that the crops aren't naturally sustainable, the farmers need to continually buy new seeds to keep planting, and in making the crops able to withstand stuff like pesticide they coincidentally seem to loose their immunity against natural threats, like insects, so suddenly pesticide has to be used for crops that initially didn't need anything; would give new seeds for the next season. Course this is just an example of how it goes wrong when large corporations angle the business to their advantage, but this is why I really don't like GMO...

Aw man those poor Chihuahuas, so lost and confused, so hyped up they're universally carried around in handbags... yeah...

Doomroar

I actually believe that education should be public, and with the best of standards, if they want to do something private then it should be extra scholar or with after school tutelage, and yet i am even suspicious of that, education is such an important thing that leaving it secluded to the vigilance of the public is just asking for it to happen, i went to a private christian school myself, and man it was a load of bullshit. Some schools should just burn they just breed ignorance.

What term did you learned? that cliffhanger is too much!

The company that opens a Nintendo branch to have its products distributed in the foreign country has Japanese representatives, of course after sometime the personal will be made mostly of local employees, with only the higher officers being Japanese, and after even more years, those would also become local employees, but those local employees would still need to go back and forth between their county and Japan, like wise, Japanese employees would still be coming to that country, even with the telecommunication of today's times. In the meantime those Japanese have to live somewhere...

If it works and it results in a risk-less enhancement then i am fine with fish genes being merged with plants, no idea how they do it though, since well... fish and plants are so different, hell mixing plants with plants is already hard as it is! tell you the truth this is the first time i hear of such a thing mixing plants with fish genes on them, is surprising, but if it can be done that is one hell of an advancement, and discovery, the possibilities man! oooooh. *uhum* yeah, as for the problem with seeds distribution, that is actually a problem of economics and not of GMO itself, the greedy bastards, that with the monopoly of food also get the monopoly in the products that are used to take care of that food, so you are correct there, that is an example of the abusive corporations, but not really of GMO itself, is in essence economics and politics, not biology per say, they misuse an invention to their advantage, exploiting everyone else.

Dem chihuahuas that can not even take care of themselves, and even worse most seem to have some short of psychological problem being overly jealous and aggressive, plus some even look like (urban)rodents!

Cyberdevil

Mmm, with a good government, a standard public curriculum for everyone would be great. Unfortunately you'll have to find private schools here to get a good education, but on the flipside those all angle their education. I don't mind when it's angled towards a certain country (like how it was when we lived abroad - I used to attend private schools with American curriculum) as much as when the education has a religious motive. Yeah I went to a Christian school too for a year I think it was, it was situated in an old castle so that part was pretty cool, but as far as education goes... I don't really remember much of it, I don't think we learned a lot... I remember once when we were out on a school trip (traveling by subway) some kids jumped the ticket barriers and the teachers were totally OK with it... just didn't seem like a very Christian thing to do. For the record I wasn't a beliving Christian myself so religion classes (which we had a lot of) were a bit awkward...

lol, I mean I learned the term Epistemology!

Apparently Bergsala Holding AB markets Nintendo in Sweden as well as neighboring Scandinavian countries. It was founded in 1976 and started collaborating with Nintendo back in 1981 which makes it Nintendo's oldest business parter outside Japan. They currently have 50 employees and Swedish CEOs (no info on the employees). I don't think there is a Swedish branch of Nintendo.

Hmm, ever read up on the hype about Americans growing and gaining excessive weight because of GMO heavy foods? I guess my view on GMO is the same as with my view on cultures: some things, I feel just shouldn't be mixed. :P Yeah, you're right, so to conclude: GMO's neither good or bad, it all depends on how it's used, as with all the facts of potential evolution and social growth we've spoken of above/below.

Haha yeah, they're like big rats, with eyeballs popping out of their skulls! Well nah, they're not that bad... as for the barking it seems the smaller the breed, the louder the bark. Also applicable to humans!

Doomroar

Yeah religion classes were the worst, specially since they are called religion classes, so i expected to hear about other religions, but no, it is all bible based, do you get standard national tests? i found that as a good way to keep tables on what private institutions are doing with their students, however the problem is how to rate what morals and ethics they are imparting on their students, what kind of culture is being promoted, that is a problem that has yet to be solved, and of course people will label it as tyrannical if it manages to be implemented.

Haha.

Oh interesting, of course after 30+ years all the personal is local, but in the early years of establishing the trading relations, especially back in the 80's most representatives for each company had to settle in the respective foreign countries for quite a long time, all the more when sharing know hows regarding distribution, etc.

They were already fat before GMOs haha, they just want to blame something other than their unhealthy life style:
"what? i am obese? is not because all i ever eat is greasy meat day in and out, sugar cereals, and desserts! is because that pesky salad i once had last year was from a farm that uses GMOs! dem companies making me fat with their modified vegetables that i never eat because they are not a part of my diet, habits and culture anyways! now pass me that Doritos and Skittles bowl! that pack of Pepsi and lets see this marathon of (insert reality show here)".

For the record a lot of people that can't have such an extreme life style, are also fat, however even they can be seen stuffing themselves with a chocolate bar every 4 hours, and then drinking a diet soda... as if that would help!
All the more the poor ones have kool-aid with sugar cereal as breakfast, the middle class eats bacon eggs and coffee (or artificial OJ, because why the hell would they get real oranges, when we get this nicely packet "natural" OJ with preservatives) when they have time, when they don't, they start the morning with coffee and beagles... then an(3) energy drink(s) every now and then, of course they would be fat!
What about the rich? if they are fat they can't really blame GMOs, they are rich they can eat other things apart from GMOs, all the more they must own Monsanto stocks!

Haha true, but a lot of them also bite, not like they can do much, but is annoying.

Cyberdevil

And they all believed it too! :L Well it's a bit like how most countries angle their history books to make it seem like they 'won' all their wars... I wonder how they teach about WW2 in Germany btw, I mean that can't be something they're happy to learn about, or talk about...

We have national tests in middle and high school. I don't remember taking a single one but I must have... it only focuses on certain subjects though, I think it was mostly math and language.

Indeed, I didn't know our ties with japan went that far back. It's like my obsession with Japanese culture is a cultural thing.: :P Yeah, back then they definitely did, but now... well I guess business deals are still closed in person, they still need to travel, though I wonder if they actually settled down even back then.

lol, it's not just obesity: they're growing taller, getting bigger feet etc. Cheap meat is mostly GMO so obesity and growth goes hand-in-hand I guess, tis not just teh vegetables! Man I'm getting a sudden craving for Doritos now, haven't eaten those in years!!! Going to get me some bowls of bad habits...

Yeah that's a pretty crazy lifestyle. It's rubbing off all over the world but it's still not as 'bad' as in the US anywhere. All the forum topics popping up with obscure candy and soda brands are pretty intriguing, there's so much spectacular taste I'm missing out on that I'd love to try but it's probably a good thing I can't... anyway, it's not just fat!

As long as they can't reach our throats we'll be OK. :)

Doomroar

Well they Berlin wall must have brought plenty of version to them, indeed i remember that they got a certain ban in the field of video game making that prohibited them the use of Nazi themes in their games, hell this awful memory of mine, there was more to that law, it was an incredibly restricting one.

No sciences, geography and all the other?

Back then it was not weird to see companies buying plots of land to house their employees, but nowadays an hotel room suffices, especially since they are not expected to stay for that long, and it is evidently more cheap too XD.

Haha, it has been years since i eat a snack or candy (ice cream and jelly doesn't counts...), yeah i forgot that meat is also GMO nowadays, and the bad kind of GMO, plus their eating habits don't really help, i hate to say this, but is almost like they ask for it, not like i can criticize them with me not doing any exercise, at best just walking from class to class...

Haha now i remembered those Poxbox's blogs about weird food, i am not particularly crazy about food, so i am fine with missing out on the experience, must be hard for you.

That would be quite the jump! haha.

Cyberdevil

Hmm, so they never even had a chance to compete with the Wolfenstien 3D franchise! Yeah I remember reading about their incredibly strict regulations after the war... in retrospect it doesn't seem very fair but considering all they did I guess it's no surprise.

Not that I recall. Reading up on it: Swedish, English, Math, Science and... Social Studies. Don't think there's n English counterpart for the latter, it's basically History (and Present), Religion and Geography combined.

Wonder if any of them people who travel to Japan to negotiate business deals sleep in those hotels where you get a bed in a box. :P I hear they're pretty cheap! Interesting btw.

I haven't eaten Jelly in years!!! That's a pretty American thing (or so I think). As is crazy cheese. And whipped cream in a can. And marshmallows. And cucumber soda. :P We have a great selection of ice cream though! Did I mention I'm biking to work three times a week lately? It's 20km/day. Might finally get some visible abs, something I haven't achieved even once since I was brought into this world... and all this just from being economical. :P Yeah the choice is up to each person, but I guess living conditions and society has a huge impact on lifestyle and health. Or it's just a habit. Or people are really getting brainwashed by ads and peers over theres. Least you're working your mind. :P

First word problems haha... if only I wasn't continually made aware of all these unobstainable tastes!! On topic of strange foods: I tried mixing vanilla yogurt, cream cheese with honey flavor and peanut butter yesterday. JSYK it's not a very good combination.

Doomroar

Yeah, i agree there, but if i remember the law was more like a restriction against violence/war themed games.

Ah it looks fine, of course social studies should be localized it wouldn't make much sense if it was not, i suppose it has some general theory on it, the normal stuff.

Haha it depends on how big your company is, and how much they love you XD.

I haven't tried cucumber soda, i mean it is cucumber flavored soda! XD.
More than abs you will get quite some legs there! now if only you were not a guy... XD.
I actually could go from my house to campus on bike if i wake up really early and put some effort on it, but meh, public transportation is not that infernal at the time that i have to use it... (man i am so lazy), is actually all those factors combined that help into shaping the habit of a persons life.

Now why would you even do that? how many toilet hours did you get for that? hahaha.

Cyberdevil (Updated )

I think it was more than about just games though... hmm, can't find any concise list of restrictions anywhere, only the restrictions they were given after the first war which the French so easily trampled over.

Yupp, the normal stuff I suppose is... normal stuff. :P

What better way to show that great love than a bed in a box! :D A truly exotic slice of foreign culture - the cozy cubicles of Japan!

Does sound pretty strange innit. :) I tried asparagus flavored sorbet once, wasn't that bad... but I wouldn't try it again. Would be interesting to try a fish flavor too if they had it... but apparantely that's only in Japan! lmao man, my legs are fine! They're always visible. :L

So true. I think my main limiter's time though, I could just walk around all day if there wasn't so much else I want to do. I'd rather bike than ride public transportation though, but if I had a car... I think I'd take the lazy route too. Yeah, definitely, I could just cruise around all day...

Well you never know until you try right. :P I did have a slight suspcion that it might not turn out that good but wth... you only eat once!

Doomroar

Lol

Lets cut the middle man, and send him to spend the night in one of those Cafe Internets that serve as half room! some even have showers!

Fish flavored soda? now that is something that generates some conflicting interest... XD.
Stop showing leg! haha.
Even if i had the time, i think i would be too tired too see class properly once that i arrive, so i probably would choose motor-wheels over leg-wheels.

YOEO! the bastard less popular child of YOLO!

Cyberdevil

A shower of love! :D

Oh no... nooo! I was speaking of ice cream (wait I even wrote that). Somehow it seems OK when it's frozen, but as a drink... that's just... woah... nah... I don't think it'd sell very well!

But summer is shorts. :P

How about the best of both worlds: an electric bike! Vrrooooomm... exercise makes you focused though, in decent doses, nothing quite like a walk if you need to get something done. A run if you want to have fun. Another one if you need some more sun. And no more cause by then you'll be DONE.

Them memes keep coming back! YOYO!

Doomroar

Good thing i have my umbrella ella ella ella.

Haha, fish flavored ice cream, actually fish flavored soda, must taste just like carbonated fish soup, which would be weird, like an unpopular salty kind of Gatorade, i bet japan must have one XD.

From now one you will be using long skirts good sir!

Too much physical activity.

Circling and circling, like a spinning top.

Cyberdevil

We make it rain! http://youtu.be/4dPjONDN3ZI

Well I just... I can't picture the taste of fish without any form of material substance, would be strange just drinking water and having it taste fishy... it'd be like the water's spoiled, like there's a dead animal floating around in the well or something...

Yeah maybe, they have everything! I'd like to taste some of their bottled green tea some time...

Gotta be a typo there man. Long shirts? Word.

Maybe sleepwalkings your sport?

Like a spinning tank top!

Doomroar

Rain like Bombs over Baghdad (with a twist) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwRfk077yg

Lololol.

Na skirts because you are showing too much leg XD.

Not even that...

That would be interesting to see...

Cyberdevil

Hell ya! http://youtu.be/PWgvGjAhvIw

Better with bootlegs? :P

But you wouldn't even know you were exercising!

It would.

Doomroar

This one has better audio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNV0oEGv12o

Cyberdevil

Nice. Only heard the original version of this earlier, guitar blends in a bit strange at first but the hook is pretty awesome!

Doomroar

The hook needs to go on & on & on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpWMRkilki0

But nowadays is all digital.

However once i wake up i would be all tired and sweaty.

Cyberdevil

I've just been introduced to one of the greatest crews I never knew were huge news! On and on and on... http://youtu.be/hALSWj3xXa0

I dig it all.

Then you could sleep all day!

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